Hello Claude - 

As we’ve talked about evaluating seedlings, looking for ‘outliers’ has always 
been mentioned - breeding with parents that we consider the best desert apples 
produce a lot of ‘pretty good’ progeny and very few seedlings that lie outside 
the parameters of the parents - but there are a handful we’ve identified that 
now exist in multiple locations as second test trees - I doubt there will be 
enough fruit associated with them next season for a lot of study tho - 

one of my biggest horticultural regrets is losing a cultivar from my 
grandfather’s orchard - it was in the row next to the property line, had shiny, 
distinctive, hard apples that looked like they should be delicious but were 
unpalatable for fresh eating - 45 years ago I didn’t know (and grandfather and 
cousin Jim who had ran that orchard were gone and couldn’t tell me) but I am 
now confident that tree was a hard cider apple variety with a lot of the cider 
making qualities that are lacking in desert varieties - all gone now tho - 

I’ve forwarded your email to Diane and Amy in case they are not monitoring this 
list - thanks for your observations and positive thoughts - 

> On Dec 15, 2016, at 11:45 AM, Claude Jolicoeur <cjolip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David,
> I was most interested to see in this newsletter that you are initiating 
> effort to develop genuine cider apples.  As far as I know, this would be the 
> first program in modern era in North America to explicitely search for cider 
> apples. There has been one in France and one in England, but none on this 
> continent.
> Most interesting is that you will be searching for them within seedlings that 
> have NOT been selected for table apples. In effect, a seedling that has been 
> selected as a good dessert apple stands very little chances of being 
> excellent for cider making purposes because the selection criteria are 
> fundamentally different when we talk cider... For example:
> Everything related to visual aspect is of prime importance for a table apple, 
> but not at all for a cider apple.
> For the flavor, we are looking for entirely different profiles. For a table 
> apple, we want freshness (medium to high acidity) medium sugar (we don't want 
> a cloying sweet apple) and no bitterness - a slight astringency would be 
> acceptable however. For a cider apple, tannins in general and bitterness will 
> be welcome, and we would be seeking lower acidity and higher sugar. Actually 
> a "bland" and a cloying sweet apple could make a good cider apples...
> On flesh texture, we want the dessert apple to be firm and crisp. For the 
> cider apple, we rather want an apple which will release its juice easily.
> Most of the selection criteria for tree would however be similar, relating to 
> productivity, resistance, etc.
> I any case, sure you have much better chances to find a great cider apple 
> from the rejects of the dessert apple program!
> I wish you best success - we badly need it!
> Claude Jolicoeur
> Author, The New Cider Maker's Handbook 
> <http://www.chelseagreen.com/the-new-cider-makers-handbook/>
> http://www.cjoliprsf.ca/ <http://www.cjoliprsf.ca/>
> Le 2016.12.15 00:19, David Doud a écrit :
>> Volume 2 of the ‘Ortet’ has been published and is available at the Midwest 
>> Apple Improvement Association website - http://midwestapple.com/index.php 
>> <http://midwestapple.com/index.php>
>> Here is a direct link to it - 
>> http://midwestapple.com/_PDF/_Newsletters/ORTET2016.pdf 
>> <http://midwestapple.com/_PDF/_Newsletters/ORTET2016.pdf>
>> If anyone has any questions, I’ll be happy to answer or find the answer. 
>> Last years edition is currently unavailable online as we had to change a 
>> couple of phrases to help with international trademark protection efforts - 
>> it will be back on the site next month.
>> David Doud - grower, Indiana
>> this past season’s crop was not the finest for which I’ve been responsible, 
>> but there is a home for every piece of fruit - 
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