----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 6:25 PM Subject: Re: ook, eek and dgi
> On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:50:35 -0500 Roger Turk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > writes: > > Bob, > > > > What do you want the database program to do? > > It seems to be an important, even critical, part > > of your planned use of Arachne as an HTML > > viewer. > > > > Roger Turk > > Tucson, Arizona > > > > > Hi Roger, > > One of these days (daze??) when things settle down (soon I hope) I'll > give you a call. Two Arachnoids in the same town is a mighty force. > > This is a long, but comprehensive, answer. For those who are in the > less-developed places and pay by the byte, maybe I can pay you back > someday with a community project or two. > > - - - > > I do a lot of work in developing communities, trying to find ways to help > them overcome the reasons that they're called 'developING' and not > 'developED'. Even in that environment, information is power. Arachne > works well as a tool to help those communities obtain, develop, and share > information. BUT, the limitation is that (without access to cheap digital > communication) Arachne is only a presentation model of information > sharing. All the work of research and development is done in those > locations without computers, because they can't afford good programs and > are mostly computer illiterate. > > Database management is one tool that is essential for anyone who desires > to investigate anything, compile the results of the investigation, and > then manipulate the data to gain various perspectives of the environment > or situation which was investigated. This is the power of a relational > database. > > The ability to crunch data provides the equalizing power for 'little > people' to compete against the 'big people', because information is > power. So, a good DBMS is vital for helping people to take the initiative > to help themselves. However, they typically start from below zero on the > learning curve, so teaching a multitude of tools (in this case a > multitude of programs) is counter productive. If results don't come > quickly, the learner either loses momentum or becomes boggled by the > details. It's hard to justify taking the time to learn to program in C > when the fields need plowed and the cows need milked. It just doesn't > happen. > > So, my goal is to find a method of interfacing HTML (which is easy to > learn and can be self taught) with a good database, so that those who > need information management tools are able to quickly, easily, and > cheaply compete against the 'big boys'. The key, I think, is the use of > hyperlinks and DGIs in Arachne to create the code that will manipulate > the data in the (DOS) database. ABOUT CGI (common gate interface) **Take care, fractured english beyond this point *grin* BTW interfacing HTML (a general marking up language aka SGML) with any database system no matter which type it is (RDBMS, flat file, OODB.....multivalue, etc.) a CGI will be needed to parsing data from any n-tier architecture where n-1 would be the data n-2 how the business rules applies to data and n-3 how data is presented to users. For the above we are talking of a webserver which acts as the middleware between data and business logic and it pulls data usually from the CGI-BIN directory (also known in the winworld as cgi-bin/cgi-win) ************************************************ OK., conversely we can talk about Arachne acting as that webserver. It remains how-to parsing data from the database to the webserver (Arachne, IE, whatever) Let me think about common questions for being "pagan" thinking to "downgrade" their "winweb" to DOS related stuff. 1. Which regular expressions will be use to filter data from the database ? Aka (what the heck will replace Perl/ PHP/Python ? Python would fit better as there is a DOS version of it despite it lacks the bell and whistles of GUI interface or IDE under DOS. A programming language is needed to work as "THE GLUE" among the system programming and application programming (aka databases, webserver, etc.) 2. How would be paginated the results of filtering a bunch of xbase pages Here the scripting engine would parse the data from the database to be showed at Arachne ? On Unix, Perl is the scripting language most widely used despite the hype of PHP. XBASE: I found z-base at Simtel as excellent resource to manipulate dbase files. Z-base is just to create a xbase DOS compatible files created from the scratch . And there a lot of dev. kits to work on xbase files . I think that it isn't a good thing for the Programmer's Toolbok any fundamentalistic attitude I feel nice to solve some trivial problems just going to any win flavor.....and coming back to the raw command line with all the necessary to continue the fun within DOS. > DOS is critical in this scheme because it's comprehensive, universal, and > free. Among the DOS browsers, Arachne has no competitors that meet that > criteria. Arachne is a GREAT tool for sharing previously accumulated > material. It's a fantastic teaching and learning device. With a cheap > digital camera (and the DOS-ware to download the graphics), almost anyone > (e.g., a local school teacher) could develop their own presentation > material - all within literally a few hours. It just doesn't interface > with a database. > > I'll give an example from my experiences working in the mountains in > Kosovo. > > In the valley where I worked, there was an ongoing program to test and > clean wells that provided drinking water. > Most were old and contaminated with organic material, some were deliberately contaminated as an act of war, and some were contaminated somewhere upstream in the watershed. An international Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) had a contract to test > and clean all the wells in the area. It may already be obvious that there > was no incentive to teach the local people how to do any of this work > themselves. The contract was for WORK, not for INSTRUCTION. The tasks (of > how to do each part of the contract) actually became a closely guarded secret - closely guarded from the locals, to maintain the need for outside assistance. > > The 'how-to' information would have been a perfect job for Arachne. A > comprehensive CD-ROM (with text, graphics, and maybe a movie or two) > about well-cleaning would have enabled the locals to do the job > themselves. One of the local teachers (or the doctor) could have expanded > the instruction to incorporate community health issues, which would have > been even better. The contractor had no interest in that, because it > wasn't part of the contract. The locals received a minimal product > (valuable, but not comprehensive) and none of the money stayed in the > local community. Most of the NGO staff wouldn't even buy a cup of tea at > the local cafe because the water was contaminated. Many months later ... > end of project. A lot of wells cleaned. Nothing else. The locals could > have done that with one of the Chemistry Toolkit toys available in the > 'educational stores' of any western city. > > > However ... > > In addition to Arachne, I happen to have in my toolbox an excellent > mapping program (called MicroDEM). (It runs under Win-doze, but I use it > because it is free and absolutely incredible). It's a great watershed > mapping tool. With a digital map (in Digital Elevation Modeling format) > of the area AND a database of the well samples, I could have plotted all > the work of the NGO and determined sources of contamination. I could have > created a GIS of 'dirty zones', focused cleanup efforts in the most needy > locations, and located areas of concern for medical workers. But, I would > have needed a good relational DBMS - and the data. > > If I had a DBMS program that was easy to learn, free, comprehensive, and > easy to expand and develop, then I could have taught a few local people > and let them run the project. Coupled with Arachne, they could have > started teaching people from other communities, who would teach others, > (etc., etc.). Within months, the entire countryside would have been > mapped for watershed contamination, problems would have been identified > and fixed, and they would have had in their possession a tool to maintain > the program AND to create other programs. But, that didn't happen. > > What DID happen was that -after one year - the UN realized that the > results of all the water-testing-and-cleaning programs were not available > for data crunching. They issued another contract for an NGO to accumulate > all the results of all the programs, and to compile a national database. > But, most of the records lacked geographic coordinates, so it was > worthless. The comprehensive database idea was quietly dropped and all > the records disappeared into some archive. > > Two years later, nobody (except the local landowner) knows which wells > were cleaned, which are still contaminated, which watersheds have which > pollutants, etc. Exactly like all the local community leaders predicted > three years ago. And that was the story with every project. Three years > later, the local people have no data, no money, and very little hope. Not > much to build on for the future. > > > And it happens all over the world. Is it any wonder that many people > don't believe us when we say, "We're here to help you". And it's all > because Arachne doesn't have a DBMS interface. > > Okay, that's stretching the truth, but it would help tremendously. And > not just in water projects, but in every project (in every place). > > Data is information, information is power, and power allows for freedom > to develop. Without the potential for the power to obtain and maintain > freedom, then there is no counter force for suppression and oppression > (whether it is corporate or governmental). > > With an Arachne-DBMS interface and a few other (free) DOS programs - > operating within the old and abandoned computer boxes hiding in millions > of homes - we could change the world. Well, at least, some parts of the > world. > Again, the pleas has to be directed to a developer with strong C/C++ skills !!!!! to figure out the CGI stuff ! There is at simtel something resembling what you are talking about.....but saddly they are libraries for Delphi (Pascal redefined to Object Oriented **OO** in the same hype as C moved to C++) and the company seems was hyperact.com does not longer exist ? I formerly used eAUTHOR from a related deadcom many valuable hours with no support at all......you get what you get pay for.... :) As you see it seems we live in a GUI, OO, win, X-windows world where DOS seems only to be used to retrieve arcane games :) There aren't there no much money to pump with new "paradigms" "libraries" "widgets" "modeling" "testing" etc.etc. so I wonder if we are in the right address yet against the waves. I saw something called XS at Simtel what seems to be a 32bit extender in the class of now OpenWatcom.org (opensource) I also remember legendary 32 bit extender DOS4GW. DOS under 16 bits will be just to laugh in this times !!! > And that is why I keep beating the Arachne HTML-DBMS drum. > > Does that answer your question? > > I didn't find the interface code in my Christmas (email) box, ... You are waiting for snippets of something called CGI-BIN stuff ............. :) I am thinking that the DOS oriented targeted developer (I implement models not coding ) would have to have a look over this compiler in the class of OpenWatcom.org Also in Simtel http://web.cs.pub.ro/~vycxs/xs/download.htm Don't be scared for the windowing of http://web.ss.pub.ro/%7Evycxs/ecdk/screenshots/scrshot13.png it seems to be for DOS 32 bit mode also (grin) As I told above.......sometimes Win is necessary....unless as a bridge to allow a retro-schema to DOS / Arachne Peace on Earth ! Elliot ************************************* > so now I'm making it my New Years Resolution. <grin> > A happy and healthy New Year to all, > > Bob (aka Radical Robert) Dohse > in these days of overwhelming SQL world here an URL to the old good days of dbase (for novices : their roots were on DOS) http://linux.techass.com/projects/xdb/
