The original of this mailing did not make it to the list, posted on 22
jan. Why was it lost??
I had an attachment (gif image of a Dutch coin with George Marshall on
it). Is it the attachment? Is it the size (total 55 kB)?
Regards Bastiaan
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<massive snip>
> I think there is logic in the argument that Europe's positions is not
> necessarily *right* just because America's position is possibly *wrong*.
> It is theoretically possible that both perspectives are wrong.
It is nearly impossible to view from another perspective... your
perspective is in your culture, your personality, your scholing, your
parents, etc.
US and Europe have much in common being 'western' civilisations but also
differ a lot.
So who is right and who is wrong :-()
>> Being Dutch, 22 years old, I think I have quite a clear view about
>> what they tell us about Germans at school.
>> - - They are NOT the enemy anymore, they are friends, and have been
>> for a long time.
> -
> Oh?
> That doesn't explain why, when my wife and I (who both have some German
> features) would walk down the residential streets in Holland, the kids
> would spit and make anti-German remarks. That also doesn't explain why
> our hosts would speak Dutch to the kids (who would then smile and wave),
> and then our hosts would tell us that the kids first thought we were
> German, but now understood that we were from America.
> I had the exact experience in Bitche, France.
> Perhaps the spitting and cussing were culturally appropriate gestures of
> affection. If so, I apologize for reaching the wrong conclusions. If not,
> I stand firm on my conclusion that Pan-European hugs and kisses are not
> universally approved.
Although the bulk of hate towards the Germans is gone... it's nearly 60
years WW2 ended... you will encounter anti-german sentiments from time
to time, in most European countries (The UK is an exeption but they
never had German occupation)
Not all resentiments against Germans come from WW2 or earlier wars.
Germany is an economic power and German tourists use and show that
money. An example: the Spanish isle of Ibiza is a popular holyday
resort. And over the years Germans bought houses there. At the time over
50% of Ibiza is in German hands, bars and hotels are run by Germans...
The original population was at first enthousiastic because this gave
jobs on the island... but over time they are becomming a minority on
their own island.
The Germans are now called 'arogant' and their money is creating envy.
The Americans are ruling the world, with money and a very big mouth...
would the 'rest of the world' react differently from the Ibizians?
As the Americans roar harder the resentiments are growing, a bit in
Europe (after all we a part of the same white and rich civilisation).
Much stronger resentiments in the non western world, especialy the
moslim world.
> I AM countering the implication that Europe has obtained a position of
> moral superiority from which it should lecture the rest of the world.
We do not have the power to do something else ;-(
> And that does NOT mean that the USA should do so, either.
RIGHT
>> - - Although Germans started WWII, that does not make them
>> warmongers. Hitler wasn't even German.
> -
> According to my elderly neighbor in Homberg, it was France who started
> the war by insisting upon heavy reparations after WW1. Of course, he
> wasn't schooled under the modern curriculum. He's also dead now, so only
> the modern textbook remains.
Hitler promised a way out: he did not pay and started to build a new
army and that boosted the economy... created jobs in a world suffering
from the economic world crash in 1929. This was not an empty promise...
However: Germany insisted upon heavy reparations before WW1 after
the war of 1870. One of the best ideas after WW2 was: no reparations...
but American help in the "European Recovery Program" also know as Marshall
Help. THANK YOU AMERICA !
Declaration of war (WW2) was by France and England after Germany
attacked Poland.
>> - - During the pre-war years, movements similar to the Nazi's
>> (fascist/nationalist) existed in most country's, including The
>> Netherlands,
>> France and Italy (Mussolini was an example to Hitler).
>> - -Whenever the economy goes bad, people will look for a strong
>> leader and a
>> scapegoat. Germany's economy was completely destroyed by heavy (close
>> to impossible) punishments for WW1.
> -
> This is absolutely true - it was an impossible situation. Some people use
> this as an argument AGAINST the collective bargaining of victorious
> combatants.
> Sanctions, embargoes, and war reparations are several of the UN tactics
> with which I disagree. I can't recall an occasion when they have been
> useful in achieving their stated objective.
Massive help like a Marshall plan DID help to Europe and Japan.
> Americans certainly act from our own perceptions and prejudices. But so
> do ALL people.
> I was my desire to make the point that American's might have a different
> perspective from Europeans, and that the American perspective might be as
> equally valid to an American as the European perspective is to a
> European.
> I'm not suggesting that America is perfect. I'm just challenging the
> implication that ANY state (or collective group of states) has reached
> the level of moral perfection which would justify dictating policy to
> others.
> To me, that conjures up images of oppression. Ironic, since the original
> discussion was about the perspective of some that it is America who is
> oppressing others. If we were both African, Asian, or Latin American, we
> would surely both be part of *US* (and Europe AND America would be called
> THEM).
> I was almost convinced to agree that some American tactics were
> objectionable. I almost joined YOU, and we were almost together as US.
> Then somebody raised the issue of comparative values (YOU should be like
> US). And we were no longer *one*. I was compelled to make a choice. THEM
> or US.
Attachment: Silver Dutch coin worth 10 guilders = abt. 4.50 US$.
50 years of European Recovery Program, face is George
Marshall.
**** America did do a lot good things to Europe... we are friends... but
friends have the obligation to critisize each other.
We are in the same pub, we both drink bear...Americans drink Budweiser
Europeans drink Heineken
****
Regards, Bastiaan
[Attached file: marshall.gif]
