Hi All, Great to see we have a good quorum. So how about 4pm EST (1pm PST) today with a hangout on air. It works best if we start a a hangout then (previous attempts to pre-schedules on-air events did not work well. So please check this mailing list around 4pm EST for the hangout on air link.
Meanwhile, please join the Airavata Google Plus community, that might be easier to share the link - https://plus.google.com/communities/100700433662281905708 Thanks all for willing to take time on a sunday, Suresh On Feb 28, 2014, at 9:15 PM, Supun Kamburugamuva <[email protected]> wrote: > +1 for Sunday afternoon. I can make it after 4 pm EST. > > Thanks, > Supun.. > > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Shameera Rathnayaka <[email protected] >> wrote: > >> +1 >> >> Thanks, >> Shameera. >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 3:11 AM, Eran Chinthaka Withana < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> +1 for Sunday afternoon >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Eran Chinthaka Withana >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 5:17 AM, Suresh Marru <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Eran, >>>> >>>> This is a great idea. I myself owe few replies on this thread and >> unable >>>> to take time to comprehend my thoughts (and realized I should take time >>> to >>>> properly articulate the challenges otherwise we will be discussing >>>> orthogonal issues). >>>> >>>> A hangout will help us brainstorm more comprehensively. We can have it >> on >>>> air so we can refer back for archival purposes. How is Sunday afternoon >>> for >>>> everyone willing to join and contribute? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Suresh >>>> >>>> On Feb 28, 2014, at 1:45 AM, Eran Chinthaka Withana < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Is there any chance of hosting a google hangout to talk about this. I >>>> think >>>>> with long emails and multiple directions things are getting little >> bit >>>>> confusing in thread (I'm partly responsible for this :) ). I can >> join a >>>>> video chat during a weekend but lets make sure its convenient for >> both >>>> east >>>>> and west coasts :) >>>>> >>>>> WDYT? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Eran Chinthaka Withana >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 9:32 AM, Suresh Marru <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I could respond to each thread in detail, but I see the general >> sense >>> is >>>>>> inquiring on the use case, so let me try and explain this and see if >>> it >>>>>> comes across. I am fully onboard with perceptions of relational vs >>> nosql >>>>>> and also agree current Airavata needs are not a direct map for NoSQL >>>>>> migration. I will summarize the driving motivation: >>>>>> >>>>>> Background: The key problem Airavata needs to solve is getting the >> API >>>> and >>>>>> associated data model right. The problem is current relational >>> database >>>>>> (with OpenJPA overlay) is severely limiting the API evolution. >> Science >>>>>> Gateways by nature are very science domain and use-case specific. >> But >>>>>> Airavata is tackling this challenging problem of providing a generic >>> API >>>>>> which will meet and enable these use case centric integration. The >>> issue >>>>>> here is, we are designing an API to handle a wide range of known >> (and >>>> some >>>>>> foreseen) use cases. But at the same time trying to keep it simple >> and >>>> yet >>>>>> flexible. The only way we can get through a reasonable, normalized >>>> version >>>>>> of API is by hands-on programming against the API. Within the >> Airavata >>>> PMC >>>>>> itself, we can solicit a half-a-dozen different ways on how to >>> visualize >>>>>> the data model. And we need few hackethon's with real-end users of >>>> Airavata >>>>>> until we find a common ground. All of this needs rapid prototyping. >>>>>> Currently a slight change in the data model is taking close to two >>>> weeks of >>>>>> re-arcitecting the Open-JPA based registry. There are many known >>>> problems >>>>>> with current draft of data model which have to be put-down in the >>>> interest >>>>>> of making over all system progress. >>>>>> >>>>>> So the driving motivation is not certainly any of the classic NoSQL >>>> needs. >>>>>> But a simple one, can we have registry which is schema-agnostic and >>> yet >>>> is >>>>>> queriable for most of the fields in the model? Can we try 10 >> different >>>>>> variants of data model (hence API) within the next 3 months with >>> focused >>>>>> hackethon's and arrive at a stable 1.0 version of API? >>>>>> >>>>>> Part one is the discussion is successful that it raised every one's >>> eye >>>>>> brows. Now that we have every one's attention, what will be a good >>> data >>>>>> store for Airavata which will meet these needs? >>>>>> >>>>>> P.S: Additional background: The API has been in development for >> close >>>> to 3 >>>>>> years and is falling short of pleasing a majority. Many academic >>>>>> standardization efforts fail terribly trying to pretend to >> understand >>>> all >>>>>> use cases and proposing a standard way (which ends up unnecessarily >>>> complex >>>>>> and not usable). Science by nature is evolutionary, and restricting >>> the >>>>>> capabilities by a known set of use cases prevents the use of >>> middleware >>>> for >>>>>> real-scientific research (and gets limited to proof of concept >>>>>> demonstrations, papers, educational use). The only way meeting the >>>>>> challenges of these evolving needs is to have the framework which >> can >>>>>> evolve with minimal disruption. >>>>>> >>>>>> Great thoughts so far, please keep 'em coming until we can find a >>>> solution >>>>>> not by the technical fancies but to address the real need. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Suresh >>>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 24, 2014, at 11:53 AM, Lahiru Gunathilake <[email protected] >>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Milinda Pathirage < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also think that moving to Cassandra or any other NoSQL will add >>>>>>>> unneccessary complexity to your solution. Also designing proper >>> (easy >>>> to >>>>>>>> manage changes, easy to query) NoSQL data models are hard (AFAIK, >>>>>> require >>>>>>>> lots of experience and understanding about data structures and >>>> queries). >>>>>>>> Also migrating from one NoSQL technology to other can require >>> complete >>>>>>>> re-write. And current relational databases can handle heavy loads >>>> except >>>>>>>> Google, Twitter, Amazon and Facebook like loads. I don't think >>>> Airavata >>>>>>>> will see Google and Amazon like loads. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> +1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If the constant changes to the data model is the problem , I think >>>> best >>>>>>>> option is to abstract registry implementation to something like >>>>>> collections >>>>>>>> and resources used in WSO2 Registry [1] or something suitable for >>>>>> Airavata >>>>>>>> context. That will make it easy to handle changes in data model. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also don't let the technologies drive design decision. Its always >>>>>> better to >>>>>>>> let use cases drive the design decision. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> +1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> Lahiru >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>> Milinda >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [1] http://wso2.com/products/governance-registry/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Supun Kamburugamuva < >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm not trying to discourage you on your exploration to NoSQL >>>>>> databases. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have the following concern. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your database schema is moderately complex - even for a RDBMS it >>>> seems >>>>>>>>> complex and the data size is relatively small. I'm not sure about >>> the >>>>>>>>> current tools available but I think you will need to write more >>> code >>>> to >>>>>>>>> support all your requirements in a NoSQL database. So writing >> more >>>> code >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> allow redundancy to support *relatively small* and *structured >>>>>>>>> data*doesn't seem right to me. May be I'm wrong and there are >>> better >>>>>>>>> tools in >>>>>>>>> NoSQL than RDBMS, which I doubt. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Supun.. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 5:20 PM, Suresh Marru <[email protected] >>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Airavata is actively migrating to use Thrift API for the >> RESTless >>>>>>>> design >>>>>>>>>> and to facilitate various language bindings from client >> gateways. >>>> The >>>>>>>>>> programming language support in thrift has been so far very >>>>>>>> encouraging. >>>>>>>>>> The current architecture is looking like Figure 1 at [1]. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Language specific clients will be released as thrift SDK's >>> (similar >>>> to >>>>>>>>>> evernote sdk's [1]). These clients will be integrated into >> gateway >>>>>>>>> portals >>>>>>>>>> which connect to the API Server. The API operations brokers he >>>> simple >>>>>>>>> calls >>>>>>>>>> into one or more backend CPI calls (Airavata internal component >>>>>>>>>> interfaces). An example set of mappings are illustrated in >>> Figure 2 >>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> [1]. The current draft of thrift API for version 0.12 is at [3], >>>>>> please >>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>> attention to experiment model at [4]. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For the persistent store, we had few iterations of Airavata >>> Registry >>>>>>>>>> shifting from a legacy XRegistry to JackRabbit to now a OpenJPA >>>> based >>>>>>>>>> registry. To allow the API and the associated data models to >>> evolve, >>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> will be useful to explore object databases so we can store the >>>>>>>> serialized >>>>>>>>>> version of thrift objects directly. But it will be nice to have >>> all >>>>>> (or >>>>>>>>>> most) of the fields queriable. This calls for a more >> column-family >>>>>>>> design >>>>>>>>>> of any NoSQL approaches. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Any recommendations for a registry architecture? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Quickly hacking through I find the following approach a viable >>> one: >>>>>>>>>> ZombieDB[5] over astyanax[6] which talks to Cassandra. Airavata >>> can >>>>>>>>> benefit >>>>>>>>>> immediately from the replication and reliability of cassandra >> and >>>>>>>>>> scalability in near future. Some of the model objects like >>>> experiment >>>>>>>>>> creation will need to have strong consistency and most of the >>>>>>>> monitoring >>>>>>>>>> can live with eventual consistency. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Critical comments please? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your time, >>>>>>>>>> Suresh >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [1] - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/AIRAVATA/2014/02/23/Brainstorming+Diagrams >>>>>>>>>> [2] - https://dev.evernote.com/doc/ >>>>>>>>>> [3] - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf?p=airavata.git;a=tree;f=airavata-api/thrift-interface-descriptions;hb=HEAD >>>>>>>>>> [4] - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf?p=airavata.git;a=blob_plain;f=airavata-api/thrift-interface-descriptions/experimentModel.thrift;hb=HEAD >>>>>>>>>> [5] - https://github.com/MisterTea/ZombieDB >>>>>>>>>> [6] - https://github.com/Netflix/astyanax >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Supun Kamburugamuva >>>>>>>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org >>>>>>>>> E-mail: [email protected]; Mobile: +1 812 369 6762 >>>>>>>>> Blog: http://supunk.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Milinda Pathirage >>>>>>>> PhD Student Indiana University, Bloomington; >>>>>>>> E-mail: [email protected] >>>>>>>> Web: http://mpathirage.com >>>>>>>> Blog: http://blog.mpathirage.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> System Analyst Programmer >>>>>>> PTI Lab >>>>>>> Indiana University >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Best Regards, >> Shameera Rathnayaka. >> >> email: shameera AT apache.org , shameerainfo AT gmail.com >> Blog : http://shameerarathnayaka.blogspot.com/ >> > > > > -- > Supun Kamburugamuva > Member, Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org > E-mail: [email protected]; Mobile: +1 812 369 6762 > Blog: http://supunk.blogspot.com
