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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user (Owen DeLong)
2. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user (Scott Leibrand)
3. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user (Stephen Sprunk)
4. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
(Alexander, Daniel)
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 12:09:27 -0700
From: Owen DeLong <[email protected]>
To: "Tony Hain" <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> While I agree that from the perspective of 'this allocation is for 3rd party
> use' leads to LIR==ISP, the justification process and unit sizes were
> historically a little different in that ISP customer ~= /30 - /32 blocks
> while typical LIR customer ~< /27, and the ISP was also getting space for
> an internal infrastructure while the LIR did not. My concern is that by
> merging terms there might be an unintended consequence in the evaluation
> side of this. I have no objection to the merge and actually support the
> simplification, just asking that someone comment about potential confusion
> between those with an infrastructure (ISP), and those without (LIR). If we
> effectively split the ISPs into the LIR part supporting customers, and the
> end-user part for their infrastructure, that may simplify policy language,
> but make the justification/evaluation process more difficult.
>
I've never seen anything like that in the ARIN region. It is not uncommon
for ISPs in the ARIN region today to receive /28 and even /24 allocations.
(IMHO, this is a good thing).
Owen
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 12:15:39 -0700
From: Scott Leibrand <[email protected]>
To: Gary Buhrmaster <[email protected]>
Cc: John Curran <[email protected]>, Dani Roisman
<[email protected]>, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID:
<cagkmwz6erfyrzuuzm-h2yvx38nojkbpzapa36-b0atfhy73...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I think my language makes it clear that LIR == ISP, and defines both.
The more important question, IMO, is how to define and differentiate
LIRs/ISPs vs. End-user orgs, so that ARIN staff can apply policy
consistently, and in a way that matches the community's intent.
Do you think this accomplishes that? Any other thoughts or suggestions
before I submit it as a policy proposal?
*2.4. Local Internet Registry (LIR) / Internet Service Provider (ISP)*
The terms Internet Service Provider (ISP) and LIR are used interchangeably
in this document. A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that assigns
address space to the users of the network services that it provides.
Therefore, LIRs / ISPs are organizations that reassign addresses to end
users and/or reallocate addresses to other ISPs/LIRs.
2.6. End-user
An end-user is an organization receiving assignments of IP addresses
exclusively for use in its operational networks, and does not register any
reassignments of that space.
Thanks,
Scott
On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Gary Buhrmaster <[email protected]
> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 2:17 PM, John Curran <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...
> > Easy enough to accomplish, if folks believe that the end result will be
> more
> > clear than present approach.
>
> Using one term (LIR) everywhere has an advantage in reading of
> the NRPM (although I would assert few do (present company are
> the exception, of course), and fewer still can actually figure out
> all the nuances (or maybe I am projecting my own limits when
> reading the NRPM :-)). But, so that those that think of themselves
> as ISPs know how they are being referred to as, the 2.4 reference
> should probably be enhanced with something like:
> .. 2.4 Local Internet Registry [LIR] / ISPs
> ..... For consistency ... the document uses the term LIR.
>
> As an editorial only change (since 6.5.1 explicitly states that
> LIR == ISP), this should not be especially controversial. On
> the other hand, I do not consider this important enough to
> invest a lot of resources into.
> _______________________________________________
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:40:26 -0500
From: Stephen Sprunk <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
On 30-Apr-13 13:06, Scott Leibrand wrote:
> The term LIR is not used in IPv4 policy (NRPM section 4), only in IPv6
> policy (section 6).
IIRC, that is because Section 4 evolved in-house by ARIN over the years,
whereas Section 6 was (initially) copied en toto from a policy developed
by the RIRs working together.
IMHO, we should use the term LIR to be consistent with other RIRs. To
make the transition easier, it may be helpful for Section 2 to note that
"LIR" is a superset of the older term "ISP", but "ISP" shouldn't appear
anywhere else in the NRPM.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:54:06 +0000
From: "Alexander, Daniel" <[email protected]>
To: Owen DeLong <[email protected]>, ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID:
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I suggest it is a worthwhile conversation to explore why they will be necessary?
If the Internet is a network of networks, why does ARIN, an RIR, need to make
the distinctions in how it allocates or assigns resources? Why shouldn't ARIN
simply allocate resources to networks, regardless of how they operate simply
based on what they need?
Are we over complicating things, not only for the Registry, but for those who
don't do this for a living who are struggling to understand what all this means
and why?
This goes back to the original PI/PA debate. There are End User networks that
dwarf many ISP/LIR networks and vise versa. Why should we maintain multiple
layers of requirements to justify IPv4 transfers and an exceedingly large pool
of IPv6 space?
-Dan
From: Owen DeLong <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:36:30 -0700
To: Microsoft Office User
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Cc: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Dan,
The definitions apply to IPv6 as well.
I believe they are still necessary.
Owen
On Apr 29, 2013, at 20:37 , "Alexander, Daniel"
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
Hello All,
I would be curious to hear people's opinions of whether the distinctions are
still necessary within ARIN policy. Once the IPv4 free pool is depleted, and
the policies become focused on processing transfers, do we need to distinguish
between End Users, non-End Users, and PA vs PI within ARIN policy?
What are the criteria in which these distinctions matter, and will they still
apply next year?
Dan
ARIN AC
From: Scott Leibrand <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:41:56 -0700
To: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
At ARIN 31 last week, Leslie's Policy Experience Report (slides at
https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdf
or
https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PPT/monday/nobile_policy.pptx)
reported that, in ARIN staff's experience, the NRPM does not adequately define
ISP/LIR vs. end-user. For example, by literally applying the existing
definitions as currently written, my employer would be neither an ISP nor and
end-user, because while they do not *primarily* assign address space to users,
neither do they *exclusively* use it in their own networks. So I think those
definitions need a few tweaks.
I would propose that the primary difference between ISPs/LIRs vs. end-users,
for purposes of the NRPM, is whether an organization reassigns address blocks
to third parties. If an organization maintains full control of all of the
equipment on its network, and doesn't need to make any reassignments to other
organizations, then it can qualify as an end-user. In particular, an end user
organization must be able to supply a full list of all the IP addresses in use
on its network, and know what devices are using those addresses.
An ISP/LIR, on the other hand, should be defined by whether they delegate that
responsibility to another organization. In that case, they need to reassign
the network space via SWIP/rwhois, which makes them an LIR.
I understand that there are other considerations, such as the expectation in
the security community that addresses within an ISP allocation are generally
controlled by third parties, whereas addresses in an end-user assignment are
generally controlled by the end-user organization. However, I don't believe
it's practical to try to draw a distinction there: rather, organizations can
decide for themselves whether they need to make reassignments (for that or
several other reasons), and that decision can drive whether they are considered
an ISP/LIR or end-user for purposes of ARIN policy.
In light of the above, I would propose the following revised definitions:
2.4. Local Internet Registry (LIR)
The terms Internet Service Provider (ISP) and LIR are used interchangeably in
this document. A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that assigns address
space to the users of the network services that it provides. Therefore, LIRs /
ISPs are organizations that reassign addresses to end users and/or reallocate
addresses to other ISPs/LIRs.
2.6. End-user
An end-user is an organization receiving assignments of IP addresses
exclusively for use in its operational networks, and does not register any
reassignments of that space.
Thoughts? Should I submit this as a policy proposal?
-Scott
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