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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
(Alexander, Daniel)
2. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user (William Herrin)
3. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user (Bill Darte)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 20:43:36 +0000
From: "Alexander, Daniel" <[email protected]>
To: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID:
<b64177493f39ba4a81233aa84b50049e9b8ab...@pacdcexmb12.cable.comcast.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I should also clarify that I support what Scott has started below and think the
two efforts would take a separate path. Scott's clarification effort is a near
term fix. If the community thinks what I am discussing is worthwhile it would
be a longer term effort and spun off in a separate thread. -Dan
From: Microsoft Office User
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:54:06 +0000
To: Owen DeLong <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>, ARIN-PPML List
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
I suggest it is a worthwhile conversation to explore why they will be necessary?
If the Internet is a network of networks, why does ARIN, an RIR, need to make
the distinctions in how it allocates or assigns resources? Why shouldn't ARIN
simply allocate resources to networks, regardless of how they operate simply
based on what they need?
Are we over complicating things, not only for the Registry, but for those who
don't do this for a living who are struggling to understand what all this means
and why?
This goes back to the original PI/PA debate. There are End User networks that
dwarf many ISP/LIR networks and vise versa. Why should we maintain multiple
layers of requirements to justify IPv4 transfers and an exceedingly large pool
of IPv6 space?
-Dan
From: Owen DeLong <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:36:30 -0700
To: Microsoft Office User
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Cc: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Dan,
The definitions apply to IPv6 as well.
I believe they are still necessary.
Owen
On Apr 29, 2013, at 20:37 , "Alexander, Daniel"
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
Hello All,
I would be curious to hear people's opinions of whether the distinctions are
still necessary within ARIN policy. Once the IPv4 free pool is depleted, and
the policies become focused on processing transfers, do we need to distinguish
between End Users, non-End Users, and PA vs PI within ARIN policy?
What are the criteria in which these distinctions matter, and will they still
apply next year?
Dan
ARIN AC
From: Scott Leibrand <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:41:56 -0700
To: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
At ARIN 31 last week, Leslie's Policy Experience Report (slides at
https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdf
or
https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PPT/monday/nobile_policy.pptx)
reported that, in ARIN staff's experience, the NRPM does not adequately define
ISP/LIR vs. end-user. For example, by literally applying the existing
definitions as currently written, my employer would be neither an ISP nor and
end-user, because while they do not *primarily* assign address space to users,
neither do they *exclusively* use it in their own networks. So I think those
definitions need a few tweaks.
I would propose that the primary difference between ISPs/LIRs vs. end-users,
for purposes of the NRPM, is whether an organization reassigns address blocks
to third parties. If an organization maintains full control of all of the
equipment on its network, and doesn't need to make any reassignments to other
organizations, then it can qualify as an end-user. In particular, an end user
organization must be able to supply a full list of all the IP addresses in use
on its network, and know what devices are using those addresses.
An ISP/LIR, on the other hand, should be defined by whether they delegate that
responsibility to another organization. In that case, they need to reassign
the network space via SWIP/rwhois, which makes them an LIR.
I understand that there are other considerations, such as the expectation in
the security community that addresses within an ISP allocation are generally
controlled by third parties, whereas addresses in an end-user assignment are
generally controlled by the end-user organization. However, I don't believe
it's practical to try to draw a distinction there: rather, organizations can
decide for themselves whether they need to make reassignments (for that or
several other reasons), and that decision can drive whether they are considered
an ISP/LIR or end-user for purposes of ARIN policy.
In light of the above, I would propose the following revised definitions:
2.4. Local Internet Registry (LIR)
The terms Internet Service Provider (ISP) and LIR are used interchangeably in
this document. A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that assigns address
space to the users of the network services that it provides. Therefore, LIRs /
ISPs are organizations that reassign addresses to end users and/or reallocate
addresses to other ISPs/LIRs.
2.6. End-user
An end-user is an organization receiving assignments of IP addresses
exclusively for use in its operational networks, and does not register any
reassignments of that space.
Thoughts? Should I submit this as a policy proposal?
-Scott
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 17:30:49 -0400
From: William Herrin <[email protected]>
To: "Alexander, Daniel" <[email protected]>
Cc: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID:
<CAP-guGWhYd_uhP-wgN0NU+z=8KEjKdDqddGzmY6X=tzzzz9...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Alexander, Daniel
<[email protected]> wrote:
> If the Internet is a network of networks, why does ARIN, an RIR, need to
> make the distinctions in how it allocates or assigns resources? Why
> shouldn't ARIN simply allocate resources to networks, regardless of how they
> operate simply based on what they need?
Hi Daniel,
Because they aren't ARIN's addresses. They're ours, yours and mine.
And we direct ARIN to act as a steward for those addresses on our
behalf, making them available to you and I. ARIN is not permitted to
abdicate that responsibility to third parties. It may delegate the
responsibility, but such delegation comes with duties on the third
party to also act as a steward for those addresses on our behalf.
So, unless the supply is sufficiently inexhaustible in the quantities
requested as to pose no imaginable need to conserve, ARIN has to
decide whether each request is a case of providing addresses to the
public or delegating its responsibility for doing so to a third party.
Regards
Bill Herrin
--
William D. Herrin ................ [email protected] [email protected]
3005 Crane Dr. ...................... Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/>
Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:52:39 -0500
From: Bill Darte <[email protected]>
To: Steven Ryerse <[email protected]>
Cc: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID:
<camapp345t9rgklo8q8ozrdeo6nttqa5rcwkgw0e4trzop6y...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Steven Ryerse wrote:
I believe that Arin and this community need to adopt a similar set of
policies like have been proposed in Europe
https://www.ripe.net/ripe/policies/proposals/2013-03 This would require a
wholesale rewrite of a lot of policies which I am not capable of doing -
but removing the needs requirements in all policies and just instituting
right-sizing policies would be in line with Arin?s mission and be best for
all. I would support anyone willing to take the time to submit a proposal
to Arin similar to the one above that has been proposed for RIPE.
Steven, please tell what right-sizing means to you and how that differs
from assigning addresses according to an explicit need...
Thanks,
bd
On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Steven Ryerse <[email protected]
> wrote:
> I agree with Daniel. I strongly believe it is Arin?s charter and
> mission to further the Internet and not impede access to it. Debating
> about what an organization is doing on the Internet or what they are called
> is really a discussion on how to limit access to the Internet. I don?t
> believe that Arin should be trying to deny or limit an organization?s
> access to the Internet. I believe Arin should be trying to expand the
> Internet for good of everyone as was done before Arin?s existence. I?m all
> for right sizing an organizations access with reasonable polices but I am
> not in favor of policies that have the sole purpose of denying or
> restricting access to the Internet. ****
>
> ** **
>
> I believe that Arin and this community need to adopt a similar set of
> policies like have been proposed in Europe
> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/policies/proposals/2013-03 This would require
> a wholesale rewrite of a lot of policies which I am not capable of doing -
> but removing the needs requirements in all policies and just instituting
> right-sizing policies would be in line with Arin?s mission and be best for
> all. I would support anyone willing to take the time to submit a proposal
> to Arin similar to the one above that has been proposed for RIPE. ****
>
> ** **
>
> *Steven L Ryerse*
>
> *President*
>
> *100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338*
>
> *770.656.1460 - Cell*
>
> *770.399.9099 - Office*
>
> *770.392-0076 - Fax*
>
> ** **
>
> [image: Description: Description: Description: Eclipse Networks
> Logo_small.png]? Eclipse Networks, Inc.****
>
> Conquering Complex Networks?****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On
> Behalf Of *Alexander, Daniel
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 30, 2013 3:54 PM
> *To:* Owen DeLong; ARIN-PPML List
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user****
>
> ** **
>
> I suggest it is a worthwhile conversation to explore why they will be
> necessary?****
>
> ** **
>
> If the Internet is a network of networks, why does ARIN, an RIR, need to
> make the distinctions in how it allocates or assigns resources? Why
> shouldn't ARIN simply allocate resources to networks, regardless of how
> they operate simply based on what they need? ****
>
> ** **
>
> Are we over complicating things, not only for the Registry, but for those
> who don't do this for a living who are struggling to understand what all
> this means and why? ****
>
> ** **
>
> This goes back to the original PI/PA debate. There are End User networks
> that dwarf many ISP/LIR networks and vise versa. Why should we maintain
> multiple layers of requirements to justify IPv4 transfers and an
> exceedingly large pool of IPv6 space?****
>
> ** **
>
> -Dan****
>
> ** **
>
> *From: *Owen DeLong <[email protected]>
> *Date: *Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:36:30 -0700
> *To: *Microsoft Office User <[email protected]>
> *Cc: *ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]>
> *Subject: *Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user****
>
> ** **
>
> Dan, ****
>
> ** **
>
> The definitions apply to IPv6 as well.****
>
> ** **
>
> I believe they are still necessary.****
>
> ** **
>
> Owen****
>
> ** **
>
> On Apr 29, 2013, at 20:37 , "Alexander, Daniel" <
> [email protected]> wrote:****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> Hello All,****
>
> ** **
>
> I would be curious to hear people's opinions of whether the distinctions
> are still necessary within ARIN policy. Once the IPv4 free pool is
> depleted, and the policies become focused on processing transfers, do we
> need to distinguish between End Users, non-End Users, and PA vs PI within
> ARIN policy?****
>
> ** **
>
> What are the criteria in which these distinctions matter, and will they
> still apply next year?****
>
> ** **
>
> Dan ****
>
> ARIN AC****
>
> ** **
>
> *From: *Scott Leibrand <[email protected]>
> *Date: *Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:41:56 -0700
> *To: *ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]>
> *Subject: *[arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user****
>
> ** **
>
> At ARIN 31 last week, Leslie's Policy Experience Report (slides at
> https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdfor
> https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PPT/monday/nobile_policy.pptx)
> reported that, in ARIN staff's experience, the NRPM does not adequately
> define ISP/LIR vs. end-user. For example, by literally applying the
> existing definitions as currently written, my employer would be neither an
> ISP nor and end-user, because while they do not *primarily* assign address
> space to users, neither do they *exclusively* use it in their own
> networks. So I think those definitions need a few tweaks. ****
>
> ** **
>
> I would propose that the primary difference between ISPs/LIRs vs.
> end-users, for purposes of the NRPM, is whether an organization reassigns
> address blocks to third parties. If an organization maintains full control
> of all of the equipment on its network, and doesn't need to make any
> reassignments to other organizations, then it can qualify as an end-user.
> In particular, an end user organization must be able to supply a full list
> of all the IP addresses in use on its network, and know what devices are
> using those addresses.****
>
> ** **
>
> An ISP/LIR, on the other hand, should be defined by whether they delegate
> that responsibility to another organization. In that case, they need to
> reassign the network space via SWIP/rwhois, which makes them an LIR.****
>
> ** **
>
> I understand that there are other considerations, such as the expectation
> in the security community that addresses within an ISP allocation are
> generally controlled by third parties, whereas addresses in an end-user
> assignment are generally controlled by the end-user organization. However,
> I don't believe it's practical to try to draw a distinction there: rather,
> organizations can decide for themselves whether they need to make
> reassignments (for that or several other reasons), and that decision can
> drive whether they are considered an ISP/LIR or end-user for purposes of
> ARIN policy.****
>
> ** **
>
> In light of the above, I would propose the following revised definitions:*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> 2.4. Local Internet Registry (LIR)****
>
> The terms Internet Service Provider (ISP) and LIR are used interchangeably
> in this document. A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that assigns
> address space to the users of the network services that it provides.
> Therefore, LIRs / ISPs are organizations that reassign addresses to end
> users and/or reallocate addresses to other ISPs/LIRs.****
>
> ** **
>
> 2.6. End-user****
>
> An end-user is an organization receiving assignments of IP addresses
> exclusively for use in its operational networks, and does not register any
> reassignments of that space.****
>
> ** **
>
> Thoughts? Should I submit this as a policy proposal?****
>
> ** **
>
> -Scott****
>
> _______________________________________________ PPML You are receiving
> this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing
> List ([email protected]). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list
> subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml Please
> contact [email protected] if you experience any issues.****
>
> _______________________________________________
> PPML
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues.****
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> PPML
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues.
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