You are free to call it misguided as much as you wish. However, I believe that the notion that turning the RIR system into a collection of auction houses just because the free pool ended is even more misguided, so I guess we should simply agree to disagree about that.
Owen > On May 31, 2015, at 11:31 AM, Matthew Kaufman <[email protected]> wrote: > > Anti-flip shouldn't matter the moment there's no free pool left to allocate > from. > > Unless you have some misguided notion that policy hacks are really going to > meaningfully impact the full-fledged transfer-only market for v4 space. > There's so many ways to structure transactions that policy attempts will be > futile. > > Matthew Kaufman > > (Sent from my iPhone) > > On May 31, 2015, at 11:10 AM, Owen DeLong <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> I don’t think anyone has said any such thing, Milton. >> >> What we have said is that it seems impossible to allow relaxed inter-RIR >> transfers within an organization in a way that preserves the anti-flip >> provisions the community has deemed necessary without having globally >> coordinated policy for the anti-flip provisions. >> >> Whether you support having such a thing or not, that much seems to be simply >> the facts of the situation. >> >> The policy in China is unrelated except to the extent that it was used as an >> example of a reason that relaxed transfer policy is needed. >> >> Owen >> >>> On May 31, 2015, at 7:49 AM, Milton L Mueller <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> It’s very naïve for people to suggest that national policy in China is >>> going to be affected by a global policy of RIRs. >>> --MM >>> <> >>> From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> [mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>] On >>> Behalf Of Rudolph Daniel >>> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2015 5:49 PM >>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2 >>> >>> >>>That?s why I didn?t propose language? I don?t think the issue in >>> >>>question can be unilaterally addressed, so I think we should accept that >>> >>>and those that are interested can begin work on a globally coordinated >>> >>>policy if they desire to do so.<<< >>> >>> Tend to agree ...It may be better addressed at global policy level if at >>> all. >>> RD >>> >>> On May 30, 2015 12:00 PM, <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>> <http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml> >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4 (Inter-RIR Transfers >>> to Specified Recipients) (Owen DeLong) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 18:16:34 -0700 >>> From: Owen DeLong <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> To: Jason Schiller <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> Cc: "[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>" <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4 >>> (Inter-RIR Transfers to Specified Recipients) >>> Message-ID: <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> If it were enforceable, it would address my concern. >>> >>> The problem is that we are then looking to have an ARIN contract enjoin an >>> action by the organization in another RIR which I am not sure would give us >>> any recourse whatsoever were that contract to be violated. >>> >>> That?s why I didn?t propose language? I don?t think the issue in question >>> can be unilaterally addressed, so I think we should accept that and those >>> that are interested can begin work on a globally coordinated policy if they >>> desire to do so. >>> >>> We?ve already seen that attempting to unilaterally influence minimum policy >>> requirements on other regions is unlikely to work. Witness RIPEs recent >>> ?workaround? to ?compatible needs basis?. I am not especially interested in >>> expanding this problem space. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> > On May 29, 2015, at 12:06 PM, Jason Schiller <[email protected] >>> > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Owen, >>> > >>> > So does this text cover your proposal then? >>> > >>> > Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2 >>> > Modify 8.4 (Inter-RIR Transfers to Specified Recipients) >>> > >>> > Date: 26 May 2015 >>> > >>> > Problem Statement: >>> > >>> > Organizations that obtain a 24 month supply of IP addresses via the >>> > transfer market and then have an unexpected change in business plan >>> > are unable to move IP addresses to the proper RIR within the first 12 >>> > months of receipt. >>> > >>> > Policy statement: >>> > >>> > Replace 8.4, bullet 4, to read: >>> > >>> > "> Source entities within the ARIN region must not have received a >>> > transfer, allocation, or assignment of IPv4 number resources >>> > from ARIN for the 12 months prior to the approval of a transfer >>> > request. >>> > - This restriction does not include M&A transfers. >>> > - This restriction does not include a transfer to a wholly owned >>> > subsidiary out side of the ARIN service region >>> > if the recipient org will be required to not transfer any IP space >>> > for the remaining balance of 12 month window." >>> > >>> > >>> > On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 4:06 AM, Owen DeLong <[email protected] >>> > <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] >>> > <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: >>> > >>> >> On May 28, 2015, at 6:46 AM, Jason Schiller <[email protected] >>> >> <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] >>> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Owen, >>> >> >>> >> How does that differ from the policy text I sent? >>> >> >>> >> Can you send an idea of policy text? >>> >> >>> >> I thought the text I sent said that an ARIN org can transfer IPs out to >>> >> another wholely owned subsidiary in another RIR region if they have been >>> >> the recipient of transfer in less that 12 months IF the recipient org >>> >> will be required (read by recipient's RIR policy) to hold the transfered >>> >> resource for the balance of the 12 months. >>> >> >>> >> >>> > Your proposal allows substitution. >>> > >>> > ARIN->Other RIR space A >>> > Space B Other RIR-> Money/etc. >>> > >>> > I want to see substitution transfers prohibited. >>> > >>> > Owen >>> > >>> >> ___Jason >>> >> >>> >> On May 28, 2015 8:31 AM, "Owen DeLong" <[email protected] >>> >> <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] >>> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: >>> >> Or simply not permit it under ARIN policy until such exists. >>> >> >>> >> Owen >>> >> >>> >> > On May 28, 2015, at 1:49 PM, John Curran <[email protected] >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> > On May 27, 2015, at 11:39 PM, Owen DeLong <[email protected] >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: >>> >> >> >>> >> >> My suggestion is that I don't mind (virtually) unrestricted moves of >>> >> >> addresses to different regions staying with the same organization. >>> >> >> However, if we are to allow that, I want us to find a way that you >>> >> >> can't merely use that as a way to move addresses out of flip >>> >> >> protection to then flip them to another organization via an RIR with >>> >> >> a less restrictive transfer policy. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> So... If you transfer addresses to another region, keeping them in >>> >> >> the same organization, no penalty. However, you are not allowed to >>> >> >> subsequently transfer them (or other addresses in that region) to an >>> >> >> external party for at least 12 months. >>> >> > >>> >> > That second portion that you seek would affect the ongoing operation of >>> >> > another RIR, i.e. it requires them having some explicit policy to that >>> >> > effect. >>> >> > >>> >> > To obtain the result you seek, we either need globally coordinated >>> >> > transfer >>> >> > policy in this area, or you need to make the inter-RIR transfer policy >>> >> > explicit >>> >> > in this regard in determination of compatibility. >>> >> > >>> >> > /John >>> >> > >>> >> > John Curran >>> >> > President and CEO >>> >> > ARIN >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > _______________________________________________________ >>> > Jason Schiller|NetOps|[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>|571-266-0006 >>> > <tel:571-266-0006> >>> > >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> <http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20150529/10dd910c/attachment-0001.html >>> >>> <http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20150529/10dd910c/attachment-0001.html>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-PPML mailing list >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>> <http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml> >>> >>> End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 119, Issue 23 >>> ****************************************** >>> _______________________________________________ >>> PPML >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>> <http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml> >>> Please contact [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> if you experience any >>> issues. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> PPML >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> <http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml> >> Please contact [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> if you experience any >> issues.
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