Amy My question is how and to what degree can you effectively verify use of ip space. I have been an ISP of some type since 1997, and I have seen many diff types of orgs with significantly underutilized IP space. ISPs, especially new ones, are rarely in that position. And one of the primary drivers of having your own IP space as a an ISP is "freedom to move about the upstream provider market" without miserable projects of reassigning customer IP allocations. Stepping down from my soapbox. Thanks Jon
Jon Bachtold Chief Technology Officer CIRBN, LLC Tel:309-820-7321 Email: [email protected] Web: www.cirbn.org 200 W Front St, Ste 500A Bloomington, IL 61701 On 1/22/21, 2:54 PM, "ARIN-PPML on behalf of [email protected]" <[email protected] on behalf of [email protected]> wrote: Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.arin.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Farin-ppml&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419452523%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=UqBOXi4qzdpCeUcjH0EjU8FQ%2Bdc0axGKIif3mZ%2BhztA%3D&reserved=0 or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Draft Policy 2020-10: Requirement to Demonstrate Utilization of Reassignments and Reallocations for ISPs Seeking Initial Allocation from ARIN (Amy Potter) 2. Re: **EXTERNAL** Re: Draft Policy 2020-10: Requirement to Demonstrate Utilization of Reassignments and Reallocations for ISPs Seeking Initial Allocation from ARIN (Hadenfeldt, Andrew) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 14:33:03 -0500 From: Amy Potter <[email protected]> To: Owen DeLong <[email protected]> Cc: ARIN <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy 2020-10: Requirement to Demonstrate Utilization of Reassignments and Reallocations for ISPs Seeking Initial Allocation from ARIN Message-ID: <can2rhv_+4skyqeglgfadzmcz6wtxcf70wkruo6qreptmtlj...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Happy friday to the ARIN community! I just wanted to poke the crowd to see if I can get some additional feedback on ARIN-2020-10. Specifically I would love to hear from anyone that feels it is a problem that ARIN reviews utilization of blocks reasssigned and reallocated to ISPs when those ISPs apply for their first direct allocation or direct assignment from ARIN (when an ISP lacking any reassignments or reallocations that applies for their first direct assignment or direct allocations would not need to establish efficient utilization of prior blocks). Alternatively, if anyone feels that removing the current requirements would lead to problems, please speak up! Thanks, Amy On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 11:30 AM Owen DeLong <[email protected]> wrote: > Personally, I oppose the proposal. > > I do not believe this levels the playing field, but rather tilts it to the > advantage of those holding space from their providers already. > > An organization holding no space has nothing to efficiently utilize and is > starting from zero, same as those other organizations presumably did back > when they were able to obtain space from their upstream. They could have > chosen to gett that initial space from ARIN, but opted for provider > assigned space instead for whatever reason. In any case, they have space > already and are either looking to expand or are looking to replace that > provider assigned space. In the former case, they are on the same playing > field as anyone looking to expand today. In the latter case, they have the > advantage of being able to continue using their provider assigned space > while waiting, so any disadvantage they may face is rather limited and is > the result of their own past decisions. > > Owen > > > On Dec 16, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Amy Potter <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello ppml community! > > I just wanted to recirculate Draft Policy ARIN 2020-10 for feedback. This > draft policy would remove the requirement that ISPs that already hold > reallocations or reassignments from upstream providers satisfy ARIN's > efficient utilization requirements for those reallocations/reassignments > before they are able to qualify for their initial allocation of space > directly from ARIN, and get on the waitlist to receive that space. > > Under current policy a new ISP that does not have any reallocations or > reassignments qualifies for a /24 without having to establish efficient > utilization of any previous space. This allows new ISPs to get on the > waitlist sooner than ISPs holding reassignments/reallocations, despite the > fact that neither type of organization holds space directly from ARIN yet. > > 1. Do you believe that NRPM's current distinction between ISPs holding > reassignments/reallocations and new ISPs without any > reallocations/reassignments still makes sense today? > > 2. Is leveling the playing field by allowing all ISPs that do not > currently hold space directly from ARIN to qualify for a /24 without > demonstrating prior use--regardless of whether or not they hold > reallocations/reassignments--a fair solution that reflects the realities > faced by these organizations today? > > Thanks! > > Amy > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 12:47 PM ARIN <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On 19 November 2020, the ARIN Advisory Council (AC) accepted >> "ARIN-prop-293: Requirement to Demonstrate Utilization of Reassignments and >> Reallocations for ISPs Seeking Initial Allocation from ARIN" as a Draft >> Policy. >> >> Draft Policy ARIN-2020-10 is below and can be found at: >> >> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.arin.net%2Fparticipate%2Fpolicy%2Fdrafts%2F2020_10%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419452523%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=n%2BeDqCYcdOtNT5tczQS3%2BXknJtC%2BLsOITCtvY%2BPq9tw%3D&reserved=0 >> >> You are encouraged to discuss all Draft Policies on PPML. The AC will >> evaluate the discussion in order to assess the conformance of this draft >> policy with ARIN's Principles of Internet number resource policy as stated >> in the Policy Development Process (PDP). Specifically, these principles are: >> >> * Enabling Fair and Impartial Number Resource Administration >> * Technically Sound >> * Supported by the Community >> >> The PDP can be found at: >> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.arin.net%2Fparticipate%2Fpolicy%2Fpdp%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419452523%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=B9ibHvHBtYfDgJdao9VoIEj%2FeO5orAMB94K3RHRBpiQ%3D&reserved=0 >> >> Draft Policies and Proposals under discussion can be found at: >> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.arin.net%2Fparticipate%2Fpolicy%2Fdrafts%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419452523%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=5h0nO0acYx9BXSaiwEGSqrGlrOiPLNe%2FrdVsoM4RMfg%3D&reserved=0 >> >> Regards, >> >> Sean Hopkins >> Policy Analyst >> American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) >> >> >> >> Draft Policy 2020-10: Requirement to Demonstrate Utilization of >> Reassignments and Reallocations for ISPs Seeking Initial Allocation from >> ARIN >> >> >> >> Problem Statement: >> >> >> >> 4.2.2 seems to provide an unfair advantage to ISPs without any IP address >> holdings - that is, they don?t have any direct assignments or allocations, >> nor any reassignments or reallocations from another organization. >> >> >> >> If an ISP does already have holdings in the form of reassignments or >> reallocations, and they request a /24, or even a /29 as an initial >> allocation - they are required to provide utilization data. This slows >> their advancement to the waiting list compared to a new ISP without any >> holdings at all. An organization without reassignments or reallocations >> doesn?t need to provide any justification other than submitting the request >> and providing an officer attestation. This expedites their addition to the >> waiting list. >> >> >> >> Policy Statement: >> >> >> >> Replace 4.2.2 with the following: >> >> >> >> 4.2.2. Initial Allocation to ISPs >> >> >> >> All ISP organizations automatically qualify for a /24.These organizations >> may qualify for more than a /24 by documenting how the requested allocation >> will be utilized within the request size specified in 4.2.4.3. >> >> >> >> ISP organizations without direct assignments or allocations from ARIN >> qualify for an initial allocation of up to a /22, subject to ARIN?s minimum >> allocation size. >> >> >> >> Timetable for implementation: Immediate. >> >> >> >> Comments: >> >> >> >> This proposal was written as the result of a Policy Experience Report. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-PPML >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.arin.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Farin-ppml&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419452523%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=UqBOXi4qzdpCeUcjH0EjU8FQ%2Bdc0axGKIif3mZ%2BhztA%3D&reserved=0 >> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >> > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.arin.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Farin-ppml&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419452523%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=UqBOXi4qzdpCeUcjH0EjU8FQ%2Bdc0axGKIif3mZ%2BhztA%3D&reserved=0 > Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.arin.net%2Fpipermail%2Farin-ppml%2Fattachments%2F20210122%2F614aa138%2Fattachment-0001.htm&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419452523%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=4dTwyF7gN6S4kChMHwq6V25BCHDBQiv049ZEiZxFh2Q%3D&reserved=0> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 20:53:27 +0000 From: "Hadenfeldt, Andrew" <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] **EXTERNAL** Re: Draft Policy 2020-10: Requirement to Demonstrate Utilization of Reassignments and Reallocations for ISPs Seeking Initial Allocation from ARIN Message-ID: <mn2pr04mb674944159372e8490e03ed39a1...@mn2pr04mb6749.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Currently opposed. The problem statement appears be more about the delays of being added to the waitlist, and I would not advise my employer to rely on the waitlist if time was of the essence. Based on what?s been presented I see no reason to waive the utilization review. -Andy From: ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Amy Potter Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 1:33 PM To: Owen DeLong <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: **EXTERNAL** Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy 2020-10: Requirement to Demonstrate Utilization of Reassignments and Reallocations for ISPs Seeking Initial Allocation from ARIN Happy friday to the ARIN community! I just wanted to poke the crowd to see if I can get some additional feedback on ARIN-2020-10. Specifically I would love to hear from anyone that feels it is a problem that ARIN reviews utilization of blocks reasssigned and reallocated to ISPs when those ISPs apply for their first direct allocation or direct assignment from ARIN (when an ISP lacking any reassignments or reallocations that applies for their first direct assignment or direct allocations would not need to establish efficient utilization of prior blocks). Alternatively, if anyone feels that removing the current requirements would lead to problems, please speak up! Thanks, Amy On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 11:30 AM Owen DeLong <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Personally, I oppose the proposal. I do not believe this levels the playing field, but rather tilts it to the advantage of those holding space from their providers already. An organization holding no space has nothing to efficiently utilize and is starting from zero, same as those other organizations presumably did back when they were able to obtain space from their upstream. They could have chosen to gett that initial space from ARIN, but opted for provider assigned space instead for whatever reason. In any case, they have space already and are either looking to expand or are looking to replace that provider assigned space. In the former case, they are on the same playing field as anyone looking to expand today. In the latter case, they have the advantage of being able to continue using their provider assigned space while waiting, so any disadvantage they may face is rather limited and is the result of their own past decisions. Owen On Dec 16, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Amy Potter <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hello ppml community! I just wanted to recirculate Draft Policy ARIN 2020-10 for feedback. This draft policy would remove the requirement that ISPs that already hold reallocations or reassignments from upstream providers satisfy ARIN's efficient utilization requirements for those reallocations/reassignments before they are able to qualify for their initial allocation of space directly from ARIN, and get on the waitlist to receive that space. Under current policy a new ISP that does not have any reallocations or reassignments qualifies for a /24 without having to establish efficient utilization of any previous space. This allows new ISPs to get on the waitlist sooner than ISPs holding reassignments/reallocations, despite the fact that neither type of organization holds space directly from ARIN yet. 1. Do you believe that NRPM's current distinction between ISPs holding reassignments/reallocations and new ISPs without any reallocations/reassignments still makes sense today? 2. Is leveling the playing field by allowing all ISPs that do not currently hold space directly from ARIN to qualify for a /24 without demonstrating prior use--regardless of whether or not they hold reallocations/reassignments--a fair solution that reflects the realities faced by these organizations today? Thanks! Amy On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 12:47 PM ARIN <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: On 19 November 2020, the ARIN Advisory Council (AC) accepted "ARIN-prop-293: Requirement to Demonstrate Utilization of Reassignments and Reallocations for ISPs Seeking Initial Allocation from ARIN" as a Draft Policy. Draft Policy ARIN-2020-10 is below and can be found at: https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.arin.net%2Fparticipate%2Fpolicy%2Fdrafts%2F2020_10%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419452523%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=n%2BeDqCYcdOtNT5tczQS3%2BXknJtC%2BLsOITCtvY%2BPq9tw%3D&reserved=0<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fwww.arin.net%2Fparticipate%2Fpolicy%2Fdrafts%2F2020_10%2F__%3B!!G2OgMis!K4DslGAwdS03yH1h0N_O6y5v-OXjoRrEs4SiL6wilx8Qno3994Xt0AtQQUVRXZQj2fm8%24&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419452523%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=te6ALyR1UyHGHMldBEtcGqclL3AJxnC2Hm7grfniVv8%3D&reserved=0> You are encouraged to discuss all Draft Policies on PPML. The AC will evaluate the discussion in order to assess the conformance of this draft policy with ARIN's Principles of Internet number resource policy as stated in the Policy Development Process (PDP). Specifically, these principles are: * Enabling Fair and Impartial Number Resource Administration * Technically Sound * Supported by the Community The PDP can be found at: https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.arin.net%2Fparticipate%2Fpolicy%2Fpdp%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419462516%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=5w9NDe8uujYqV3%2FT2MIcUZ7%2FCSizY0si%2FVQFvI%2FWc5E%3D&reserved=0<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fwww.arin.net%2Fparticipate%2Fpolicy%2Fpdp%2F__%3B!!G2OgMis!K4DslGAwdS03yH1h0N_O6y5v-OXjoRrEs4SiL6wilx8Qno3994Xt0AtQQUVRXQ_67GMq%24&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419462516%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=HVQPHfAZp0XMlolNa%2Fav9KYf0SK0RlyDssXOMasyAkc%3D&reserved=0> Draft Policies and Proposals under discussion can be found at: https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.arin.net%2Fparticipate%2Fpolicy%2Fdrafts%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419462516%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=MhqG4ZIxLR%2FKcyjcNOCpVFfW46qzg7EIkMMJ501j9dk%3D&reserved=0<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fwww.arin.net%2Fparticipate%2Fpolicy%2Fdrafts%2F__%3B!!G2OgMis!K4DslGAwdS03yH1h0N_O6y5v-OXjoRrEs4SiL6wilx8Qno3994Xt0AtQQUVRXVdxOidA%24&data=04%7C01%7Cjcbach%40cirbn.org%7Cd51a666ef0814c8793fa08d8bf17d6fa%7C2ea443f603e44fb693494797073fdcad%7C0%7C0%7C637469456419462516%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=%2BuzKI3UJ7YvPP%2B4P1uDVAJW8rXiw%2FTZ%2Fny%2FDD1M%2FT0k%3D&reserved=0> Regards, Sean Hopkins Policy Analyst American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) Draft Policy 2020-10: Requirement to Demonstrate Utilization of Reassignments and Reallocations for ISPs Seeking Initial Allocation from ARIN Problem Statement: 4.2.2 seems to provide an unfair advantage to ISPs without any IP address holdings - that is, they don?t have any direct assignments or allocations, nor any reassignments or reallocations from another organization. If an ISP does already have holdings in the form of reassignments or reallocations, and they request a /24, or even a /29 as an initial allocation - they are required to provide utilization data. This slows their advancement to the waiting list compared to a new ISP without any holdings at all. An organization without reassignments or reallocations doesn?t need to provide any justification other than submitting the request and providing an officer attestation. This expedites their addition to the waiting list. Policy Statement: Replace 4.2.2 with the following: 4.2.2. Initial Allocation to ISPs All ISP organizations automatically qualify for a /24.These organizations may qualify for more than a /24 by documenting how the requested allocation will be utilized within the request size specified in 4.2.4.3. ISP organizations without direct assignments or allocations from ARIN qualify for an initial allocation of up to a /22, subject to ARIN?s minimum allocation size. Timetable for implementation: Immediate. Comments: This proposal was written as the result of a Policy Experience Report. _______________________________________________ ARIN-PPML You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>). 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