It’s easy you you and me to say someone else would be better off buying a /24 at ~$10K on the transfer market, than leasing it from their transit provider or a third party. I tend to agree with that, but it’s not my money, so maybe my opinion doesn’t matter.
On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 20:36 Michael B. Williams < [email protected]> wrote: > I don’t believe third party leasing at a /24 or higher is in anyone’s best > interest expect IP brokers and those obtaining IP resources with the intent > to resell. > > I’m not against portability but if a participant wants portability they’d > need a /24 or higher. Aquire their own IP resources… > > On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 21:30 David Farmer via ARIN-PPML < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> At one time you couldn’t take your Telephone number with you provider to >> provider, those rules were changed, because it was in the telephone >> consumer’s interest. >> >> Can you consider that maybe it is in the Internet consumer’s to make some >> changes to the IPv4 address leasing rules at this time. I’m not suggesting >> full Internet address portability, but allowing 3rd party leasing >> especially at the /24 level could be beneficial to the Internet consumer’s >> interest, at least in my opinion. >> >> There are bigger picture issues at play in this conversation, should they >> win the day, maybe not, but dismissing them out of had isn’t a good idea >> either. >> >> Thanks. >> >> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 20:06 Fernando Frediani <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> On 08/05/2023 21:54, David Farmer wrote: >>> >>> <clip> >>> >>> In my opinion, your very technical definition of leasing is an >>> anachronism. The reality is if you want/need more than a /29 of addresses, >>> and you don’t already have them, you will need to pay for them one way or >>> another on top of your transit bandwidth, through the transfer market, >>> leasing them from your transit provider, or leasing them from a 3rd party, >>> this is today’s reality, like it or not. >>> >>> Getting it from the transit provider who is building Internet >>> infrastructure and providing connectivity is fine, has always been. Getting >>> from a 3rd party who is just speculating around IP space and not interested >>> in building any Internet stuff not. It does not matter what reality may be >>> happening in some places, if that is wrong it does not make it look right >>> because some are doing and find that a normal thing because it fits to >>> their commercial needs. Is Congress willing to change law to make crimes in >>> the top of list not to be a crime anymore because that is happening more >>> often? >>> You are only authorized to trade with what you bought and own. >>> >>> Fernando >>> >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 18:23 Fernando Frediani <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Willian. A customer who holds an ASN and is a ARIN member should not >>>> get IP space to announce with their own ASN from the ISP provider but >>>> directly with ARIN in all cases. >>>> Legal risk will always exists and it is not because it exists it should >>>> not be taken, just need to evaluated and worked. >>>> >>>> There has been a proposal presented not much a while ago that intended >>>> to get that separation better worded and which was still in the process of >>>> getting feedback and improvements, but AC quickly dismissed it in a >>>> questionable way despite there has been people interested in discussing and >>>> improving it. A pity. There has not even been a chance to get a improved >>>> text in that sense. >>>> And honestly there will always be some way someone will find out to try >>>> to circumvent rules and I don't think there will be a perfect text, but a >>>> reasonable one that can cover most scenarios can play a important role in >>>> reducing scenarios where resources can be misused. >>>> On 08/05/2023 19:45, William Herrin wrote: >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:26 PM Fernando Frediani <[email protected]> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Another thing which many here are targeting about IP leasing >>>> in the sense of renting, speculation made by those who don't >>>> build or offer any Internet infrastructure and services. In other >>>> words someone holding IP space and not using it to build any >>>> Internet infrastructure and services. >>>> >>>> Hi Fernando, >>>> >>>> You may be missing my point. How do you differentiate in policy between: >>>> >>>> Scenario 1: ISP A provides a T1 and a /24. ISP B provides a gigabit >>>> ethernet. Customer routes with BGP on both but depreferences ISP A so >>>> it never shows up in the Internet BGP tables. >>>> >>>> Scenario 2: Pretextual ISP C (the defacto address leaser) provides a >>>> /24 and a VPN (or virtual machine other nil-cost transit consuming >>>> mechanism). ISP D provides a gigabit ethernet. Customer routes with >>>> BGP on both but depreferences ISP C so it never shows up in the >>>> Internet BGP tables. >>>> >>>> Scenario 1 is considered reasonable and has been for the entire >>>> lifetime of the RIRs. >>>> >>>> Scenario 2 is the objectionable address leasing arrangement with a >>>> tiny bit of fluff to bring it into technical compliance with ARIN >>>> policy. >>>> >>>> >>>> You can't tell ARIN to just exercise their judgement whether something >>>> is defacto leasing. That creates legal risk to the organization where >>>> they can't effectively act against the people they "know" to be >>>> leasers. >>>> >>>> You have to write a policy that outright breaks scenario #2 without >>>> harming scenario #1.That's the utilization count approach. ISP A in >>>> scenario #1 is not particularly bothered if ARIN gets a bee in their >>>> bonnet about counting that /24 utilized. So they have to be at 81% >>>> instead of 80%. Same difference. >>>> >>>> ISP C in scenario #2, that's their entire business. If ARIN counts it >>>> unutilized, they're out of business. >>>> >>>> Get it? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Bill Herrin >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARIN-PPML >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >>> >>> >>>> -- >>> =============================================== >>> David Farmer Email:[email protected] >>> Networking & Telecommunication Services >>> Office of Information Technology >>> University of Minnesota >>> 2218 University Ave SE >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> Phone: 612-626-0815 >>> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 >>> =============================================== >>> >>> -- >> =============================================== >> David Farmer Email:[email protected] >> Networking & Telecommunication Services >> Office of Information Technology >> University of Minnesota >> 2218 University Ave SE >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g> >> Phone: 612-626-0815 >> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 >> =============================================== >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-PPML >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. > > >> -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:[email protected] Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 ===============================================
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