On Fri, 17 Feb 2012, Lex Trotman wrote:
[...]
Because at this point in time, working with ODT files does not work,
Why? I thought this was the big win that you got with ODF.
Ok, let me explain the various facets of the ODF backend.
- Styling in LibreOffice is a compelling reason for end-users compared to
LaTeX or DocBook
- Being able to collaborate on files (AsciiDoc) _and_ the ability to
generate DOC and PPT files is a compelling reason for a
lot of organizations, who cannot use LaTeX or DocBook (because it has
to produce DOC and PPT that are then used/edited by sales-organizations)
- Being able to collaborate on styles and improving styles in XML is not
an issues for large organizations, they have the skills and they *will*
prefer the possibilities of doing that on XML files. This is different
from XSLT btw, which is much harder than modifying a color, a
font-size, etc... I am talking here about IT companies, governments,
etc... ODF XML stylesheets can be compared to CSS stylesheets, rather
than XSLT.
- BTW I foresee that some organizations will even modify the ODT backend
to make it do more advanced stuff that is impossible to do with ODF
styles/LibreOffice.
Now considering that the ODT output is not finalized and might radically
change in the coming months, maybe even until 2013 depending on how this
project evolves, it will break LibreOffice styled documents and XML
styles.
For those people that do styles in XML it will be very easy to fix those
changes in the stylesheets. For people using the LibreOffice interface,
not so much. Once a style has been renamed, used in a different way,
etc... You have to start from scratch, even worse, you have no example
style if you used the old working style, the styles have disappeard. So
you cannot simply edit an existing style, and you cannot add a style that
automatically applies to a previous construct. It does not work like that.
So the most important selling point (styling in LibreOffice) will not be
practically usable until the ODT output has been finalized and written
into stone.
But we won't finalize the ODT output if there is no compelling reason for
me to use it. And there won't be a compelling reason for me to use it, if
it's not immediately practical useful. And (again) ODT styles will not be
practically useful for a long time. And I (and others) can only work on
this if I can sell this solution to projects that see a benefit in using
it. Only if it is immediately useful, despite shortcomings (e.g. the ODT
output might change).
So XML stylesheets is the only way I (and hopefully others) can work on
this during business hours, because it's the only practical solution while
the ODT output evolves.
In fact, once we have the most practical mapping from DocBook to ODT,
someone with XSLT skills will have a much easier time to recreate an XSLT
that will do just that. The docbook2odf project had multiple issues, and
the most important one was that there was no proper process to document
the ODF constructs.
Due to circumstances, generating ODT hasn't had the work that FODT has
(and Dag should be highly commended for that) but I am not sure that
it plain "does not work". If thats the case please let me know (with
examples).
Take the example README.txt and asciidoc-odt-test.txt, create a, fodt and
an odt, then open both and look at the difference. (You may first have to
fix the a2x backend, because it gives a backtrace with image)
Those are the issues we have to fix.
But to end this conversation:
Somehow in the whole discussion it appears that I am against using ODT
styles, and that is definitely _not_ the case. My point is simply that
before we have an acceptable solution that works for the intended
use-case, we have to make sure development can continue using XML
stylesheets, and that the workflow already works for basic documents so
people can work on it during business hours.
And even with XML stylesheets, when talking to various people and showing
off the examples in the project (e.g. README.txt and
asciidoc-odt-test.txt using the hp theme, with proper fonts and hp
cover-art) it's obvious people are interested to start using it. We simply
have to make sure we make it clear that ODT stylesheets is not a
short-term option. (And not just because the current implementation fails)
--
-- dag wieers, [email protected], http://dag.wieers.com/
-- dagit linux solutions, [email protected], http://dagit.net/
[Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"asciidoc" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected].
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/asciidoc?hl=en.
