>They had to come
through Sanskrit (panini's grammar 600-650 B.C.).
Alpana:
No. This is not correct. Please
read that chart again. The Sanskrit (Panini's grammar 600-650BC) is actually
shown as a dead end. The languages are actually coming from the other branch
(where Sanskrit is not there) the old Prakits : Sauraseni, Prachya etc and
ultimately Magdhi, Rajasthani, etc.
Please read the chart
again again and you will see what I am saying. Even than if you have
question, I can clarify.
Thanks for the site.
Barua
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 11:21
AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom,
phonetically speaking
>history of the Indian languages
carefully. It is tricky. Sanskrit, by definition, is a dead >language,
which means it ended in itself. As such none of the Indian
>regional languages are derived from Sanskrit. None. Assamese,
Bengali, Oriya and all >the Indo-Aryan languages in India are derived from
different Pakrit languages like
http://banglapedia.search.com.bd/HT/B_0137.HTM
Please see the chart in the above
web site.
You can say the Indo-Aryan
languages came from the Ancient Prakrit
(800 B.C., Old/spoken
Indo-Aryan) languages, yes. But they did not come
directly from there. They were NOT Assamese or
Bengali then or the other modern Indian languages that we have now. They
had to come through Sanskrit (panini's grammar
600-650 B.C.).
Sanskrit is from 600/650 B.C. and
the ancient Prakrit (old spoken Indo-Aryan) is from 800 B.C., which is also
dead and from which Sanskrit itself came from. They themselves are dead
but their descendents are the modern languages.
So the argument:
>language, which means it ended
in itself. As such none of the Indian >regional languages are derived
from Sanskrit. None. Assamese, Bengali, Oriya and
does not hold any water. One can
say Sanskrit itself came from the ancient Prakrit languages (old/spoken
Indo-Aryan). But to become the modern Indo-Aryan languages like
Assamese, Bengali, Oriya, etc. they had to come through the stages
of which Sanskrit was a main one.
Latin has become a dead
language, but isn't it a fact that the modern Indo-European languages are
descended from it??
Both Latin and Sanskrit are dead
languages but are still alive in new forms.
Disclaimer: From a non- expert (on
languages, in this case) who trys to dig up and put forward
vaild arguments against something that sounds outrageous sometimes, but is
always open to accept counterarguments. :-)
From: "Rajen Barua" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ram
Sarangapani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC:
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
assam@assamnet.org Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically
speaking Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:46:06 -0600
Ram:
Thanks for the site. It is
great.
Regarding Assamese and other
languages coming from Sanskrit, please read the history of the Indian
languages carefully. It is tricky. Sanskrit, by definition, is a dead
language, which means it ended in itself. As such none of the Indian
regional languages are derived from Sanskrit. None. Assamese,
Bengali, Oriya and all the Indo-Aryan languages in India are derived from
different Pakrit languages like Magadhi, Sauraseni, etc. Now these Pakrit
languages are derived from some Vedic and pre Vedic languages. Sanskrit
itself was one language which was derived from some pre Vedic language.
However, Panini standardized Sanskrit and made many changes phonetically (we
lost X sound) and grammatically. However due to Panini's strict rules,
Sanskrit remained as a fixed written language, fixed in time forever. That
is why it is called a dead language.
From above, it should be very
clear that Sanskrit cannot be the mother language on any of the Indo Aryan
languages: Assamese, Bengali, Gujarati, Marthi etc. Sanskrit can be strictly
speaking a cousin language.
But if a dead language can have
power, it is Sanskrit which have been influencing the Indians greatly.
Many educated Indians (I mean scholars) make the mistake again and again.
How many times you will hear Indians stating that all Indian languages are
derived from Sanskrit etc. Technically this is not correct. Please. Sanskrit
is dead.
If we consider, Panini's time
(6th/7th century BC, Panini was from Afghanistan-Kandahar) to be the time of
Sanskrit the way we see it today, Assamese language is much older than that.
Historically it is my argument that the Assamese XO sound was there in
Assamese since 3000 BC when Narakaxur (contemporary to Rama and Sita)
established the first Aryan-Axur kingdom in Pragjyotishpur.
(Otherwise historically it cannot get into Assamese
later). If you read Kaliram Medhi, Dimbeswar Neog and others, you
will find that Assamese language has still retained, besides the XO sound
many characterisc of old Indo-European language like Persian etc which were
lost in Sanskrit and others. With all these data, one can in fact make
a convincing argument that Assamese is older than Sanskrit, a point made by
Medhi and Neog. Assamese still has many pre Vedic words which were lost in
Sanskrit.
(When you read Banikanta
Kakaoty, please read with caution. Being a student of Dr Suniti Kumar
Chatterjee, he did not contradict anything of his master. Compared to him, I
think Neog, Medhi and Bharali are much more original Assamese
scholars.)
The bottom line is, even Bani
Kanta Kanoty has never stated that Assamese originated from Sanskrit. If he
did, read his wording again, because he cannot mean that. But if you find
any reference, I would like to see, and would appreciate if you would
forward these.
As you can see, in Assam there
is hardly any scholars left today. Have you seen any leadership role being
played by Oxom Xahityo Xobha? The one genuine scholar left in Assam,
Dr Golok Ch Goswami is probably so frustrated that he decided not to speak
in such mundane latters. But what I am saying, he supports me specially
regarding the X sound and the use of W for W-kar in Roman
script.
Another point is that Assamese
has only one O and one Ah. Hindi and
Sanskrit have A=Horso Ah, then AA=Dirgho
Ah. So when they write A, the sound is always short
Ah like U=Up. Assamese say Onil, in Hindi
they say Anil with Ah. All the Assamese names like
Anjana, Ajanta, Archana, Anil etc, in Assamese we pronounce
with O. But the same words are pronounced with
Ah by the mainland Indians in Hindi, Sanskrit. That
is why when we write Asom, an Assamese might pronounce
Osom, but Hindi and Sanskrit will
pronounce Usom. See the spelling of the word
Dalda in Hindi. It is written as Dolda but
pronounced as Dalda.
All these are happening because
(litikai) Assamese are trying to follow the Hindi, Sanskrit group
blindly without real that Assamese language is a much more simpler language
like Pail, and that it has its separate originality and beauty.
We need to retain the lost
originality of the Assamese language. We need to stand up and say, we no
longer follow you mainland India blindly. We have our originality which we
need to retain.
Anyhow these are is
my points. I hope I am not confusing you.
Rajen
Barua.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 11:39
AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom,
phonetically speaking
Hi Barua,
I am glad the Statesman publised your article. It is quite
informative and one can lear a lot. But reading the papers and letters to
the editor, one gets the inpression, ASOM is here to stay and the GOA is
backing it up.
While browsing, I did come across several references to Assamese as
derivative of Sanskrit (you of course do not agree with this). Some of the
sources refered to Bani Kanta Kakati, Hemkox etc.
I can send you some of these if I come across them. I don't know how
authentic they are.
BTW: Here is a link that may interest you and others regarding the
"voiceless velar
fricative "
The link is very interesting and refers to Assamese also.
Interestingly, it seems the English language sometimes also uses the voiceless velar
fricative.
Here is the link.
Hope it is useful to
you.
--Ram
On 3/7/06, Rajen
Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Thanks.
The Statesman,
Kolkata has already published it. A friend from Kolkata
sent it to me.
We will have to keep on
fighting.
"Amar Oxom" Editor Dr
Nagen Saikia, Ex Oxom Xahityo Xobha President, is preparing to publish
my article in Assamese and contunue the debate.
I think this is an issue
for Assamese lifeline.
Many have not seen it as
such yet.
Let us see.
Thanks for your
support.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006
9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or
Oxom, phonetically speaking
Good note Rajen. Hope they publish it.
c
At 8:33 AM -0600 3/7/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
Letters to the
editor
THE STATESMAN,
KOLKATA 4 March 2006
Asom or
Oxom, phonetically speaking
Sir, I am writing this
letter with reference to a decision by the Assam government to
change the name of the state to Asom. This is a wrong decision for
certain reasons. Asom is a Sanskritised spelling and not an Assamese
spelling. The proper Assamese spelling in the Roman script should be
Oxom. The Assamese gutteral kh sound is a well-recognised velar
fricative, and is also found among other languages including Greek
and Russian. The International Phonetic Association has designated
the Greek letter, 'X', for this Assamese sound. This sound is not
represented by the letter, 'S', as written in the word Asom. As such
it is 'X' and not 'S' that should be used. Again, the first letter
should be 'O' and not 'A'. The letter 'A' is used in Sanskrit
and Hindi where they have two 'A's. In Assamese we have only one
'A'. The correct vowel for the Assamese pronunciation should be 'O'.
The Assam government by taking a decision to use the Sanskritised
form of spelling Asom instead of Oxom is trying to kill the
proper Assamese ethnic sound 'XO'. This will be a great letdown for
the entire Assamese people, and we request the Assam government not
to meddle with the Assamese language. If it has to change the name,
it should adopt the correct spelling, i.e. Oxom. Yours, etc.,
Rajen Barua, Katy (Texas), USA, 4 March.
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