Ram-da,
I feel you need to realize that there is scope of lots of bias -while handing out loans or jobs to applicants. And that is the bias which favors those whose community members dominate the system -ie upper castes , Jains, Parsees etc.
There is lot of subjectivity involved in these issues - as research has shown even in US or France in their hiring and admissions - while comparing figures for blacks etc in US and Muslims in France etc - among those who had comparable educational and work experiences
Further, govt does play an importnat role in US - in determining whether students attending Univ would be allowed to have federal student loans. The recent Supreme Court ruling in US allowing the govt to block such funding those those Univs who do not allow military recruiters is a case in point.
Why shouldn't a rich Dalit get reservation -- when there is no poor Dalit qualified enough or educated enough to join -for example in IIMs which require advanced English schools which are possible in costly private schools - which only rich Dalits can attend. So rule of thumb let all Dalits enjoy the success. Why not allow the Dalits to have a benefit of doubt - that those who become rich will help their poorer brethren. My experience is that they are as humanistic as others - I would say more so. Dalits have a much more community spirit to help their poor.
Umesh
Ram-da wrote:
"Any institution in the US can apply for such grants (heck even institutions in India can apply with the USG). If the USG feels that the facilities are good and the research etc is good they may give the grants.
The fact that Harvard or MIT gets such grants does not mean they have to follow federal mandates
for admissions. If the grants are indeed "tied" to such mandates, the institution can refuse the grants."
Ram Sarangapani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Umesh,You made some good points. But lets try to see thru what you wrote.>for one his parents would find it much easier to get a student loan from any bank >compared to a Dalit --esp in private banks since most managers in banks are still upper >caste.Do banks in India give loans (as a policy) based on caste? Or do they give loans based on the ability to pay back and other financial factors?>Second, a Brahmin (or even more a Bania ) would find it much easier to get a job- esp in >private sector --even media - I have seen such cases.You are talking about private cos. If a Brahmin does get a job, then by definition he become better-off (than he was before, and the Dalit is still in the same place - poor).If the Dalits (as you say) are always poor, then they would obviously and automatically qualify well for a reservation policy based on finances alone - the fact they are Dalits has no bearing.The "intent" of a good reservation policy should be such that NO rich Dalit or rich any caste or tribe gets the reservation solely based on caste. That is the essence.>Third, even at Harvard -- most students get US govt's tax money -as Federally funded >student loans Stafford and Perkins loans.This tells me you are NOT fully aware of the US system. All these loans, though provided by the US Govt. DOES NOT dictate where the student must study - the only requirement is that the institution is approved by the DOE (Dept. of Ed.). So just because someone goes to Harvard does not mean the loan or grant by the USG becomes easier. As far as the DOE is concerned all schools are equal.>I think MIT's many deptts incl aerospace depend upon US Govt grants for upto 60% of >their budget.Any institution in the US can apply for such grants (heck even institutions in India can apply with the USG). If the USG feels that the facilities are good and the research etc is good they may give the grants.The fact that Harvard or MIT gets such grants does not mean they have to follow federal mandates for admissions. If the grants are indeed "tied" to such mandates, the institution can refuse the grants.--Ram da
On 4/7/06, umesh sharma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Ram-da,First, trauma for a so-caled Brahmin's son would certainly be much less --for one his parents would find it much easier to get a student loan from any bank compared to a Dalit --esp in private banks since most managers in banks are still upper caste.Second, a Brahmin (or even more a Bania ) would find it much easier to get a job- esp in private sector --even media - I have seen such cases. Those still in buiness exec jobs Banias (Business castes) favor each other a lot and dominate -since they have been the only communitities managing businesses - since time immemorial.Third, even at Harvard -- most students get US govt's tax money -as Federally funded student loans Stafford and Perkins loans. Also, all research driven Univs incl Harvard depend a lot on Govt grants. I think MIT's many deptts incl aerospace depend upon US Govt grants for upto 60% of their budget. So even if they are private they still are doing what Indian govt can do.Further, in case of South India - reservations for women should be from with the 50% quota for reserved candidates - so that atleast 50% of all seats in jobs and colleges are thru open competition.Umesh,>anyway fees at iims are over rs 150,000 ($4,000) very costly for poor dalits -- comparable >to fees in many govt run us univs.And will the trauma of high costs be any less for say a poor, high caste (Brahmin)?The bottom line is if reservations are a necessacity, then they should be based entirely on the financial situation of the family.>for example at harvard 8% of newly admitted students were blacks and 12 % latinos. no >economic quota there either.You miss the point. Harvard is a Private intitution and is funded by endowments by private companies and people NOT the US Govt. Harvard should be able to decide who it wants to let in and in what numbers as taxpayer money does not go into it.--Ram da
On 4/7/06, umesh sharma <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:i was in first year at college in delhi univ when mandal commission gave its recommendations to increase reservation upto 50% of total seats in govt jobs and colleges- reflecting their percentage in indian population of dalits and obcs.i think in south india they have further reservation of upto 80-90% incl quotas for women, managemnt seats, war veteran''s children quota etc.however, even in top us univs their are unofficial quotas -- for example at harvard 8% of newly admitted students were blacks and 12 % latinos. no economic quota there either. anyway fees at iims are over rs 150,000 ($4,000) very costly for poor dalits -- comparable to fees in many govt run us univs.umesh
Ram Sarangapani <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:Now, it seems that Delhi is trying to increase reservations in IITs & IIMs to 75% to 90%.Instead of rethinking and implementing a sound 'reservations' policy based on family income, the politicians (Congress/UPA in this case) are only trying to woo voters for a permanent gadhi.All this sounds vaguely familiar to the fast-track citizenship to illegal aliens in this country.Now that the center is insistent on increasing the reservations for the premier Institutes in India including the IITs and IIMs, the outrage of the general category students is very understandable. In this article I have briefly given the historical origin of such reservations and the consequences of such a provision.I am sure most of the Indians have experienced the frustration of having to struggle for limited resources. This situation is made worse by the presence of such reservations. It has other far-reaching consequences as well, like less capable people acquiring positions of power and this leads to further inefficiencies in an already inefficient government.
It is well known that backward classes in India have been oppressed for centuries by other castes. This oppression continues to this very day especially in rural areas. Mahatma Gandhi was among the pioneers to set out to resolve this problem. He supported the caste system but was against the oppression by the so called "higher castes".
Reservations were first introduced in India by the British in 1931 as part of the Puna Pact. This was done on the insistence of Dr. Ambedkar to give the oppressed classes a fair standing in the society. Mahatma Gandhi protested this decision claiming that it was a part of the British "divide and rule" strategy. He insisted that reservations would only exacerbate the problem by segregating hindu society.
Post-independence, Dr Ambedkar became the law minister and chairman of the drafting committee for India's constitution. Reservations were a part of the constitution when it was released in 1950. However, that was supposed to be a temporary measure and was to last for 10 years.
More than 50 years later the reservations continue to exist and have only become higher with passing years. The politicians, in an attempt to woo more votes from the public, continue to reserve more and more seats for SCs/STs/OBCs. I wonder if they even put in enough thought to the implications of such an action.
These reservations probably benefited some in the early years after independence and pulled some people out of the grips of poverty. But now these are used exceedingly by the lower caste people who have very good incomes. This is an unfair situation not only for people from other castes but also for the poor people of "lower castes". Some people from the "higher castes" in a fit of desperation even illegally change their identities to those of "lower caste" people just so they can secure a job. It is also evident that people with lower capabilities are reaching positions of higher responsibilities and that is leading to a suboptimal workforce especially in government services.
I think it's high time the government started taking proactive measures to try to solve the problem and not deceive the public. The reservations are not entirely bad and are sometimes even required for the upliftment of backward/oppressed people. But, reservations should be based on family income and not caste or creed. In addition, scholarships should be provided to poor people with high caliber to study in the best schools.
The ultimate goal should be to uplift the needy so that they don't need reservations any longer. A key factor to achieving this is to provide good primary and secondary education to every child especially in rural areas. Having had access to schools at par with the best schools, they will have no reason to ask for reservations.
To sum up, reservations are required but not for the people of backward classes, some of whom earn more than most of us, but for the poor of the country. The ultimate aim of such reservations should be the upliftment of the poor and not winning the votebank. Also, these reservations ought to be a temporary aid in order to develop a society where it is no longer required.
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Umesh Sharma
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Umesh Sharma
5121 Lackawanna ST
College Park, MD 20740
1-202-215-4328 [Cell Phone]
Ed.M. - International Education Policy
Harvard Graduate School of Education,
Harvard University,
Class of 2005
Umesh Sharma
5121 Lackawanna ST
College Park, MD 20740
1-202-215-4328 [Cell Phone]
Ed.M. - International Education Policy
Harvard Graduate School of Education,
Harvard University,
Class of 2005
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