At 6:59 PM +0100 5/25/06, umesh sharma wrote:
It is not a joke to those who send their children to minority run educational institutions -and are rejected becos they do not belong to their faiths (of minority run inst.).
What KIND of 'minority' are we speaking of here? MuslimS?
Christians? Sikhs?
or Manipuri, Sindhi, Gurkha, Anglo-Indian? What?
And WHY should an Anglo_Indian school let Marwaris into their
private school if they do not have vacancies? Or an Assamese one admit
Punjabis similarly?
The current quota system also applies to all except those institutions by religious minorities.
Might be a relief to many parents and remove some angst of those in Hindu community.
Umesh
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Absolutely!Indian 'secularism' in public life is a joke, thru and thru.At 6:38 PM +0100 5/25/06, umesh sharma wrote:
So secularism in India should do away with the Rights in Indian Constitution dictating extra rights for religious minorities ---incl. two permamnent seats for Anglo Indian Christians (out of 560) --who are just a few thousands.
Agreed?
Umesh
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
>To C-da's point about intellectually tenable
>arguments, let's just be aware that there are no
>intellectually tenable arguments in the game.
*** Not at all true!
IF you or I believe in the principle of a secular state, then we
should agree that religious choices are entirely personal. The state
has NOTHING to do with it. Should not have. The state ought not to
attempt to PROMOTE or PREVENT conversions. The state has NO business
meddling in it.
The fact of the Indian constitution dictating terms of religious
conversions ( if that is for a fact--I don't know), while at the same
time proclaiming a secular state, is profoundly contradictory. It is
an attempt to have it both ways.
*** The other thing about it is that what the argument above means
is, SINCE other religions make fake claims ( as they assert), it is
OK for the Hindus to do the same. It is an admission of the falsehood
involved.
That is an intellectually UNTENABLE proposition for ANY
self-respecting Hindu. And if it is not, because one does not get it,
then it OUGHT to be, once it is pointed out.
But if it still is not, that would explain WHY these partisans make
the argument which implies conversion is irreversible, even forced or
coerced ones.
That is exactly why Hinduism totters in the state it does. Because
its intellectuals act as clueless as they do.
At 9:07 AM -0700 5/25/06, Rajib Das wrote:
>Rajenda,
>
>That is where the problem is.
>
>When we take medicine with the cognizance that it is
>medicine (because we know it is), many still believe
>there is a higher power casting his/her shadow and
>making us well.
>
>The crocin story is different: An illiterate man is
>given the pill without being told it is medicine. And
>when he does get well, he is told see Jesus saved you
>- there was no medicine, there was no jadi booti and
>yet Jesus saved you. That is fraud. So are so many
>other such strategies involved. May be some one has
>documented it online - I haven't checked.
>
>It is the same as reportedly some Hindu godmen pulling
>prasad out of their hair. Or these Christian
>evangelists in America doing tricks in front of crowds
>and getting some disciples to generally start shaking
>or something.
>
>To understand that this is fraud isn't rocket science.
>
>
>Oh yeah, since this is fraud not only does one need to
>stop the practice, these protagonists need to be
>thrown in jail.
>
>To C-da's point about intellectually tenable
>arguments, let's just be aware that there are no
>intellectually tenable arguments in the game. In the
>conversion game, it is mostly tricks that are played.
>Very rarely does a poor, illiterate tribal in the>Bastar belt experience the right kind of God and under
>goes spiritual transformation in an intellectually
>tenable way.
>
>The Church's evangelizing ways around the world has
>many such tricks - not just in India. You might want
>to check out some of the news about the Catholic
>Church NOW trying to dissuade evangelists from using
>these ruses in North America and Europe. But the 3rd
>world is fair game I guess.
>
>
>
>
>--- Chan Mahanta wrote:
>
>> Exactly right Rajen.
>>
>>
>> >Why we are trying to single out the Christians as
>> indulging in fraud
>> >and leave the Brahmin priest who is making the
>> Indian give >'pindo'
>> >to his dead ancestor? All are frauds to the same
>> degree.
>>
>>
>> That is because the anti-conversion crowd could not
>> come up with an
>> intellectually tenable argument to support their
>> cause in a country
>> of self-professed but hollow secularism.
>>
>> The real truth is: This whole 'coerced' or
>> 'fraudulent' or 'forced'
>> conversion argument is bogus as a three rupee note!
>>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 8:40 AM -0500 5/25/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
>> > >When an illiterate person
>> > >is given Crocin (and perhaps for the first time
>> in his
>> >>life) to reduce temperature and then told Jesus
>> Christ
>> > >healed him, that is as simple as fraud.
> > >
>> >Frankly speaking I don't see what is the problem in
>> above.
>> >In all religions we more or less do exactly this
>> which may be called fraud.
>> >We take medicine and go to temple to pray to save
>> us, and when
>> >saved, we say it is only God who saved us.
>> >We study and go to exam and pray to Goddess
>> Swaraswati to pass in
>> >exam, and credit her for our success.
>> >We do bsuiness and credit our success to Sai Baba,
>> >We have small pox and pray ti 'Ai' and credit her
>> for the cure.
>> >
>> >Exactly in the same line, the Christian missionary
>> is saying that
>> >yes, you need to take 'crocine' but ultimately it
>> is Jesus Christ
>> >who will have to bless you to cure like any Hindu
>> God or Goddess for
>> >cure. We do this 'crocin' frauds in all religions.
>> Why we are trying
>> >to single out the Christians as indulging in fraud
>> and leave the
>> >Brahmin priest who is making the Indian give
>> 'pindo' to his dead
>> >ancestor? All are frauds to the same degree.
>> >RB
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: Chan Mahanta
>> >To: Rajib Das ;
>> >[email protected]
>> >Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 8:02 AM
>> >Subject: [Assam] Analgesics to the Rescue
>> >
>> >At 8:04 PM -0700 5/24/06, Rajib Das wrote:
>> >
>> >>I defined it earlier. See the crocin story.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > >When an illiterate person
>> > >is given Crocin (and perhaps for the first time
>> in his
>> >>life) to reduce temperature and then told Jesus
>> Christ
>> > >healed him, that is as simple as fraud.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >** Yeah I saw that. Crocin, an analgesic, to the
>> rescue? That is
>> >laughable. It does however point to the reasoning
>> abilities of
>> >certain people, who could and would willingly make
>> the argument that
>> >it might be enough for an 'illiterate' person to
>> 'convert'. I would
>> >submit, that the 'literacy' or 'education' of those
>> proffering such
>> >arguments is something that requires serious
>> evaluation. Read on,
>> >and you will see why.
>> >
>> >
>> >But let us accept even that as an example of
>> fraudulent inducements
>> >to drive them 'illiterates' to convert to
>> Christianity from whatever
>> >their faith might be. If it is Hinduism, then it
>> would not speak
>> >much of their Hindu faith--considering that it
>> melts in the heat of
>> >Christian analgesics like the wicked witches of
>> fairy-tales.
>> >
>> >Now then, could 'crocin' induced conversions be
>> reversed with
>> >stronger Hindu medicine? What if the Hinduttwa
>> brigades came to the
>> >battle with powerful weaponry like education,
>> social-work, and the
>> >really big guns--antibiotics? Could that win over
>> Christian 'crocin'?
>> >
>> >If NOT, why so?
>> >
>> >Umesh will argue that Hindus have no money! But
>> that argument we>> >can safely discard. I am sure I would not need to
>> hurt anyone's
>> >feelings by going into a painful explanation of
>> why.
>> >
>> >So, why is it irreversible? Why is a 'coerced',
>> 'fraudulent',
>> >'bribery' induced conversion irreversible? What
>> prevents the misled
>> >from being shown the light and brought back into
>> the right fold?
>> >
>> >The only answers I can see are:
>> >
>> >A: These 'illiterates' are forever incorrigible.
>> >
>> > But this does not stand to reason.
>> >
>> >
>> >B: Once they touch Christianity, they never could
>> come back to
>> >Hinduism, or whatever faith they belonged to prior
>> to the
>> >'fraudulent' conversion.
>> >
>> > This might have some basis, on the 'jaat mora'
>> concept widely
>> > prevalent among vast numbers of Hindus.
>> >
>> > But I know why no Hindu above the level of an
>> imbecile would
>> > touch that explanation.
>> >
>> >C: That this whole 'coerced' or 'fraudulent' or
>> 'forced' conversion
>> >argument is bogus as a three rupee note!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>--- Chan Mahanta wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Define fraudulent.
>> >>>
>> >>> But the big question that no Hindu will or can
>> >>> answer is HOW can a
>> >>> forced, or fraudulent or coerced conversion
>> stick,
>> >>> unless the 'jaat
>> >>> mora' factor, an essentially caste based Hindu
> > >>> shame, is operative?
>> >>> What prevents the converted from reverting to
>> her
>> >>> original state,
>> >>> once he is explained that she was converted by
>> >>> fraudulent means, or
>> >>> deceived, or coerced?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
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