C'da,
>Ram did it too, but in a more sophisticated way, without seeming >o shield the scam artists, by painting them ALL alike, Christians, >uslims, Jews, Hindus, even though he knows as well as we all do, >hat it does not really fly.
I did not such thing ie. comparing religions in this case. All I said was that we should really not be surprised by people getting ahead in line by paying bribes (or thru influence) whether its in India or elsewhere. It doesn't have to be a temple.
The difference, which I pointed out is that in the West, the average Joe/Jane adhere to the rules, line up, pay their taxes etc etc - but the elite and influential do not always have to follow such mundane rules. There are many examples. Its done so subtly, that it almost looks sophisticated.
Since you brought it up, Muslims who make the holy trip to Mecca will tell you how they are scammed, cheated, and often illtreated by unscrupoulous Saudi organizers. Also, I don't see Haaj pilgrims to Mecca moving around in an organized manner. Every year people get killed because of ill-managed crowds.
Its a given - no one condones scam artists and touts and nor should anyone give them 'protection'. But it say that India and Hinduism are the only scanctuaries for such behavior and these scams and bribes etc only exist there.
BTW: Tirupati is one of the most corrupt temple institutions in India. Further, the Temple Board is equally corrupt. But the Temple Board has done some things - they ply over a 1000 buses every day, built the roads, the 'cottages' (good ones) for devotees, have their own airport, and a university to boot.
Having said that, you will also find that the Muslim Wafk Boards are equally corrupt.
See C'da, given half a chance many people will steal if they think they can get away with it - that just seems to be human nature - unfortunately.
--Ram
On 5/27/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 12:31 AM +0100 5/27/06, umesh sharma wrote:C-da,If you are a real devotee you do not even have to enter the temple and have darshan -to be blessed.
*** So, are you suggesting that all these people who wait in line for hours to get their piece of salvation are either 'fake' or are irrational?
I might go along with the latter. But that is a different matter. Question though is how do you rationalize *your* pilgrimages, considering how nicely you hold yourself as a rational and 'true devotee'?
>So, there is no need to bribe to have darshan. Go when you find it convenient. >And there are so many pilgrimage spots - if you miss one --try the next one!!
*** Why? What is the rationale? Are you suggesting that they should go play 'fake devotees' or indulge in irrational behavior elsewhere, just so the scam-artists at arguably one of Hindudom's 'holiest' shrines can be sheltered from criticism like the ToI blogger has opened up on?
*** All your posts on this matter have had one central theme: An attempt to shield these scam artists and crooks from scrutiny and criticism? Ram did it too, but in a more sophisticated way, without seeming to shield the scam artists, by painting them ALL alike, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, even though he knows as well as we all do, that it does not really fly. Bhuban Kokaideu was even more sophisticated in his approach: he tried to equated the internet websites and the credentials of the trustees with cleanliness of the god-viewing business in these 'temples'.
Question is WHY? Because it puts Hindudom in a bad light? If it does, would it not make more sense to clean up its dirty laundry, instead of hiding it and perpetuating the stench?
Many saints are there who were not even allowed inside Hindu temple (i think Tukaram or Ramanuj fits the bill ) --and they gained spiritual knowledge just by praying from outside.I went to Thirupati on August 8, 1998 (on Rakhi day -where North Indian Hindu sistes tie sacred thread to their brother) to attend a classmate's wedding -right on temple grounds. He hailed from Vijaywada. Desirous of having darshan of the temple diety _ i took a tarin which landed me there at 6 am (morning) and so I could have darsdhan and attend the evening wedding (a great event -south Indian style -they changed 6 different costumes in the course of one hour)) .As luck would have it it was flood season duer to monsoons in Bihar , UP -so my train coming from there was late (I was in Bhopal in center of India) by 12 hours. I lay on the platform awaiting the train -noone could tell when it would arrive.So instead of reaching 12 hours before the wedding I reached just as the wedding ceremonies were about to start.I could not have the darshan at all -since I had to catch the train back next morning from a remote station 30 miles away . Srinivas' brother did buy two of the big and delicious laddoos for me (it seems many people just go in to get the laddooo and sell it outside).It was only in Dec 2000, when I was extremely harassed due to office politics and made a scapegoat - I went there which I mentioned earlier-really successfully. I had no notion that it (temple darshan reservation) had been recently computersied by then. In the next six months I did more pilgrimage than my entire life before or after (incl Pushkar near Ajmer roundtrip 100 miles- 5 hours flat on my motorbike -on the road where the lumps of coal tar made mountains and crevices) and twice to Kumbha Mela at Allahabad in Jan 2001 (second time with my mother) -where 30 million people visited on a single day. Following that in May 2001 - to Dwarka -again with my mother .We had no train reservations at all. Even my mother was so enthused that she slept on the train floor. We also saw the House of Nehru (in Allahabad) and Birthplace of Mahatma Gandhi (in Porbandar - near Dwarka) while on the way to Somnath --again at the behst of people we met at Dwarka.So, there is no need to bribe to have darshan. Go when you find it convenient. And there are so many pilgrimage spots - if you miss one --try the next one!!Umesh
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>If you are a devotee you would sift thru the hay and find the
>treasure. Truth >is not found by the roadside.
*** Thanks for clearing that up. I am relieved!
> >Even Marx had to struggle against poverty to achieve fame- you
>might relate to his experience I thought.
*** Huh? What does this have to do with bidding for 'darshan'?
At 3:39 PM +0100 5/26/06, umesh sharma wrote:
>C-da,
>
>You don't get it. If you are a devotee you would sift thru the hay
>and find the treasure. Truth is not found by the roadside. Even Marx
>had to struggle against poverty to achieve fame- you might relate to
>his experience I thought.
>
>Umesh
Umesh Sharma
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