C'da,
> In this instance, IF you or the 'offended intelligentsia' can show, >how the arguments I or Rajen presented, in regard to choosing to >Sanskritize Oxomiya names, sounds and words before >transliterating in English, are wrong, or inappropriate or without any >basis, then they can certainly turn the tables on yours truly or >Rajen or others who agree with our position. And then call
> us Assam's worst enemies :-), for belittling their own.
Hehehe! C'da. I must say, I am cautiously elated to have you put me up the pike (with the inelligentsia of Assam) - of cousrse I can well expect to be cut down unceremoniously any miniute :)
But, I am a nobody - what do I know of things beyond my ken? Ami xolu 'ale bele MA pass' (just scrapped thru).
> In this instance, IF you or the 'offended intelligentsia' can show, >how the arguments I or Rajen presented, in regard to choosing to >Sanskritize Oxomiya names, sounds and words before >transliterating in English, are wrong, or inappropriate or without any >basis, then they can certainly turn the tables on yours truly or >Rajen or others who agree with our position. And then call
> us Assam's worst enemies :-), for belittling their own.
Hehehe! C'da. I must say, I am cautiously elated to have you put me up the pike (with the inelligentsia of Assam) - of cousrse I can well expect to be cut down unceremoniously any miniute :)
But, I am a nobody - what do I know of things beyond my ken? Ami xolu 'ale bele MA pass' (just scrapped thru).
All, I was trying to say is that intellectuals in Assam, perhaps also know, and feel for Assam. And that there are a few out there too. One hopes that this responsibility has NOT been only given to a few kharkhowas on Assamnet. You know that "God's gift to Assam' that is often bandied about in some of these posts.
> >And who, C'da is deciding this?
> *** Those who can think clearly and lay-bare the issues for all to >see and have them decide for themselves.
And of course, silly me, all those who can think clearly and lay-bare all the issues must only lie in these bilati shores :)
Again, let me reiterate, your's and Barua's prescription of using authentic transliteration is a noble effort and you have all my support for this proposal.
That fact that the Sentinel or AT is not endorsing your proposal or the fact (or otherwise) of some sinister design by the Hindiwallas or the Delhiwalls is in the works has NO bearing at all on this issue.
If the people in Assam want and accept your proposal then it will happen. And if they don't, it won't (despite all the scientific proofs you can put forward). After all, it is the people in Assam who will be using or not using your proposals - when they transliterate.
But by beating up the AT the Sentinel and some of the intellectuals as being anti-Assam (and her interests) because they don't happen to agree with you, you ain't doing this pet proposal any good :) (Just my opinion - and it ain't worth much)
--Ram
On 9/18/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Ram:
>
> I wasn't trying to spin at all - just saying things as I read tem.
> And the turnip truck thingie hopefully works for all spinners :), and
> knowing netters, I am sure it does.
>
>
>
> *** I am sure you were not. But sometimes these slippery things go onto the
> spin cycle all by their own, you know, like those Fords that go into reverse
> from parking by itself?
>
>
> >Well, well, well. I could have sworne that there were several attempts
> to put the blame squarely on desi-democrasy, the Hindiwalla's attempts
> >to Sankritize or Hindify Assamese or Delhi's futile attempts...
>
>
>
> *** I understand how that goes. Is there a better way to deal with
> unpleasant realities than by manufacturing and assigning a patently
> untenable proposition to the offender and then battering it :-)?
>
>
> >And who, C'da is deciding this?
>
>
> *** Those who can think clearly and lay-bare the issues for all to see and
> have them decide for themselves.
>
>
> >Is there a chance, that those intelligentsia could as well return the
> >same charge?
>
>
> *** Of course they can, provided they can lay-bare the FLAWS of their
> opponents' arguments.
>
>
> In this instance, IF you or the 'offended intelligentsia' can show, how the
> arguments I or Rajen presented, in regard to choosing to Sanskritize Oxomiya
> names, sounds and words before transliterating in English, are wrong, or
> inappropriate or without any basis, then they can certainly turn the tables
> on yours truly or Rajen or others who agree with our position. And then call
> us Assam's worst enemies :-), for belittling their own.
>
> That simple.
>
> Fair deal :-)?
>
>
> c-da
>
>
> At 9:49 AM -0500 9/18/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
> O C'a,
> *** You are free to spin it any which way you wish. That is the
> beauty of this forum. However, we must no forget that those who >are
> watching and judging, aren't exactly people who just fell off a
> turnip truck and will be willing to be spun out to dry.
>
> I wasn't trying to spin at all - just saying things as I read tem.
> And the turnip truck thingie hopefully works for all spinners :), and
> knowing netters, I am sure it does.
>
>
> *** It was very perceptive of you to point that out. Rajen would like >that
> very much. After all, he has been the one amongst us who >minces no words in
> pointing out how SOME Assamese --SOME of >its intelligentsia that is, who
> have been Assam's worst enemies, >selling her interests out in every which
> way
>
> Well, well, well. I could have sworne that there were several attempts
> to put the blame squarely on desi-democrasy, the Hindiwalla's attempts
> to Sankritize or Hindify Assamese or Delhi's futile attempts...
>
> Naw, it must be me? I must have been dreaming.
> --SOME of >its intelligentsia that is, who have been Assam's worst
> enemies, >selling her interests out in every which way
>
> And who, C'da is deciding this? If they support being Indian, within
> India, and think Indian,(which most Assamese do), would that make them
> "Assam's worst enemies" by default?
> Is there a chance, that those intelligentsia could as well return the
> same charge? That is - people who are anti-Indian are "Assam's worst
> enemies and selling her interests inevery which way"
> :)
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
>
> On 9/18/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> At 3:54 PM -0500 9/17/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
> Thank you C'da.
>
>
>
> *** Don't mention it Ram. The pleasure was all mine .
>
>
>
> >The truth of the matter is that even if the appropriate transliterations
> had existed, some >of would have found an issue with some other thing - IMHO
> - this has more to do about the >Indian Controls, and very little to do with
> transliteration.
>
>
>
> *** You are free to spin it any which way you wish. That is the beauty of
> this forum. However, we must no forget that those who are watching and
> judging, aren't exactly people who just fell off a turnip truck and will be
> willing to be spun out to dry.
>
>
>
>
> >The Sentinel and the AT have unwittingly provided fodder ---
>
>
> *** Oh, the hapless AT or the Sentinel and their 'hwja' editors! You make my
> heart break Ram .
>
>
>
>
>
> >True, but these "Indians" have another attribute, they are also Assamese,
> they run >newspapers, write editorials, and of course manage to
> mis-transliterate.
>
>
>
> *** It was very perceptive of you to point that out. Rajen would like that
> very much. After all, he has been the one amongst us who minces no words in
> pointing out how SOME Assamese --SOME of its intelligentsia that is, who
> have been Assam's worst enemies, selling her interests out in every which
> way .
>
>
> c-da
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >The English have long gone from Assam and have no colonial aspirations over
> it any more. But Indians do, and thus the >attempt to keep Oxomiya names
> Sanskritized would make one suspicious of the action as as a means for
> holding Assam safe for >Indian controls . How's that for a clear,
> unapologetic and no-holds-barred explanation, spoken out like it should be
> :-)?
>
> I have been trying hard to get to the botom line here - and you have
> provided with real reasoning behind wanting a true transliteration.
> The truth of the matter is that even if the appropriate transliterations had
> existed, some of would have found an issue with some other thing - IMHO -
> this has more to do about the Indian Controls, and very little to do with
> transliteration.
> The Sentinel and the AT have unwittingly provided fodder for some to yell
> "Ah ha! there is that Indian language base, Sanskrit again, influencing our
> language and making us lose our identity"
>
> >But Indians do, and thus the >attempt to keep Oxomiya names Sanskritized
>
> True, but these "Indians" have another attribute, they are also Assamese,
> they run newspapers, write editorials, and of course manage to
> mis-transliterate.
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
> On 9/17/06, Chan Mahanta < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ram:
>
>
>
>
> At 11:51 AM -0500 9/17/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
> C'da,
>
>
>
> >NOT constitute an insult to the Assamese language and to the Assamese
> >identity? WHAT is the logic?
>
>
>
> That should cause indignation and people should tell the papers that the
> Newspapers have the responsibility to write such names in proper
> transliterated English - which must represent spoken Assamese as close as
> possible.
>
>
>
>
>
> *** How to go about correcting it is a wholly different issue.
>
>
> Just because there has not been a tidal wave of indignation over this in
> Assam does NOT mean that it is a taboo, or that you or I cannot or should
> not analyze it with OUR own abilities.
>
>
> And just because it has been done wrongly by luminaries long dead, does not
> mean it is forever closed for re-examination.
>
>
> And by the same token just because it was practised by 'well known people',
> does NOT automatically grant the practice some validity; the reasons, the
> logic, the rationale for which is not visible to people of ordinary
> intelligence , does it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It is the sanctity of the language that is important here. The question of
> Assamese losing their indentity because th AT/Sentinel goofed up is as
> far-fetched as saying there are no illegal B'deshis in Assam.
>
>
>
> *** Huh! That is yet another attempt on you part to muddle the issue,
> because you don't like its implication Ram. Rajib is right when he explains
> "The sanctity of the language is an integral component
> of identity.", even though he is wrong elsewhere in the post.
>
>
> The two issues are not mutually exclusive, nor are they a zero sum issue, in
> which one can negate or dilute the other.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The war of identity needs a different thread.
>
>
>
> *** No it does not. The fact is that they are thoroughly and inseprably
> intertwined.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Th question of Assamese is being Sankritzed or Anglicized also needs a
> different page.
>
>
> *** Same as above again.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> But if you try to buttress your arguments by bringing in identity,
>
>
>
> *** My point does not need any buttressing from any other related issue. It
> stands clear and irrefutable by ordinary logic, Otherwise you and other
> apologists for Sanskritization would have demolished it like the Babri
> Masjid :-).
>
>
>
> desi demokrasy, Sankritization, influence etc then the language is left
> elsewhere and it looks like there these other issues are affecting your
> thought process.:)
>
>
>
> *** I do not pidgeonhole my thoughts on these matters to spare the
> discomfiture of those who would rather not see them as they are, but as
> isolated issues, not connected with each other. The idea is to cause the
> discomfiture it does :-). That is the only way to bring them out, and dress
> them down, in full public view :-).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I pose the same questions to you (as I did to Barua)
>
>
>
> Why? I will even answer that.
>
> 1) If Assamese ARE NOT losing their identity
>
> 2) If it was not Sankritized
>
> Then will you accept "Sankaradeva" instead?
>
>
>
> I hope, you and others would NOT on those grounds.
>
> It is extremely simple:
>
>
>
> IT should be "Xongordew" because THAT IS HOW ASSAMESE WANT it. And that is
> how we would like others to pronounce it as well.
>
>
>
>
> *** I did not follow the thread, and cannot make out here who popsed what.
> If you explain I will address that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> And let me add: let us assume it was not Sanskrit or Hindi
>
> but it was English that was influencing Assamese. Would that make a
> difference (and you wouldn't really mind?)
>
>
>
>
> *** For one thing, it would NOT make any difference. All will be equally
> illogical, without rationale.
>
>
> But having said that, I am pleased to point to another nuance: The English
> have long gone from Assam and have no colonial aspirations over it any more.
> But Indians do, and thus the attempt to keep Oxomiya names Sanskritized
> would make one suspicious of the action as as a means for holding Assam safe
> for Indian controls . How's that for a clear, unapologetic and
> no-holds-barred explanation, spoken out like it should be :-)?
>
>
>
>
> c-da
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >One who brought identity to the discussion--and stands by it :-).
>
>
>
> And you did such a pretty good job of it that you had Barua convinced it was
> me and not you who brought it up. :)
>
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/17/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
>
> O'Ram:
>
>
>
>
> WHY would not a Sanskritized ( or Hindified or whatever non-indigenous form)
> name of the singular icon of Assameseness,flaunted by one of Assam's
> flagship newspapers NOT constitute an insult to the Assamese language and to
> the Assamese identity? WHAT is the logic? What is the rationale?
>
>
>
>
> How would you react to an Assam newspaper writing Vimla Chaliha, or
> Chanderkant Handique or Anandram Baruah ?
>
>
>
>
> If you can explain that, credibly, I am willing to re-consider my views on
>
> Sankaradeva, a name that no Assamese speaker speaks that way.
>
>
>
>
> Yours truly,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> One who brought identity to the discussion--and stands by it :-).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 6:47 AM -0500 9/17/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
> Barua,
>
>
>
>
>
> >Tt is as simple as that.
>
> >Question of identity comes later.
>
>
>
> Now it seems you are getting the point. I was NOT the one who brought
> "identity" into this discussion.
>
> Some netters did, so I wanted to know their reasoning behind that.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Ram
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/16/06, Barua25 < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ram:
>
> If your name is Ram, you want people to call you Ram, and not Rama or Rhama.
>
> Tt is as simple as that.
>
> Question of identity comes later.
>
> Thanks
>
> Rajen Barua
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ram Sarangapani
>
> To: Barua25
>
> Cc: Chan Mahanta ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Dilip/Dil Deka ; [email protected]
>
> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 3:26 PM
>
> Subject: Re: Sankaradeva vs Xongkordew
>
>
>
>
> Barua,
>
> >The way you are advocating for the Sanskrit spelling '>Sankaradeva' against
> Assamese spelling 'Xongkordew', is >same as advocating for (say) the
> spelling 'Pankaradeba' in >place of 'Xongordew'
>
>
>
> I advocated NO SUCH THING. You are once again putting words in my mouth.
> Show me where I said that? And I am surprised you didn't catch th drift or
> essence of my posts on the subject.
>
>
>
> I do not have a problem with the advocacy of "Xongordew" or "Xongordeu".
> In fact, I think that is how it should be.
>
>
>
> But, if you going to tell me it is because Assamese are losing their
> identity, that is why it needs changing (in fact that was ONE reason
> advocated in the discussions), or because it is being Sankritized - I have a
> problem.
>
>
>
> Why? I will even answer that.
>
> 1) If Assamese ARE NOT losing their identity
>
> 2) If it was not Sankritized
>
> Then will you accept "Sankaradeva" instead?
>
>
>
> I hope, you and others would NOT on those grounds.
>
> It is extremely simple:
>
>
>
> IT should be "Xongordew" because THAT IS HOW ASSAMESE WANT it. And that is
> how we would like others to pronounce it as well.
>
>
>
> You tell me, isn't that a good reason? Why do you need other reasons?
>
>
>
> Nothing else matters - the other reasons some netters are trying to dish out
> are simply frivolous.
>
>
>
> And when such reasons are forwarded, it brings out other issues: ie maybe,
> this is more of an identity problem and not so much from maintaining the
> sanctity of the language itself.
>
>
>
> And if you want to talk about Assamese losing their identity, by all means -
> let us discuss that, but as separate issue, as it a very important issue,
> IMHO.
>
>
>
> >With this type of advocacy, you will qualify yourself to go >back to the
> basics of alphabet in Assamese and English
>
>
>
> Hehehe! Guilty as charged. But aren't you glad though, that I am the only
> one?
>
>
>
> And I hope this is all clear as mud :)
>
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/15/06, Barua25 < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >I had prefaced my argument with "devil's advocate' and my feelings on this
> are:
>
>
>
> >Is writing out "Sankaradeva" not appropriate because
>
> >(a) We know better now - it should be Xonkordeva
>
> >(b) Because it is Sankritized (and we want nothing to do with that)
>
>
>
> >(c) Its an identity crises
>
>
>
> Ram:
>
> I don't know whether you had relaised your position while adocating this
> way. Sincerely, with this type of devil's advocacy, you are simply trying
> to prove that either you are clueless about the Assamese langauge as well as
> the English language. The way you are advocating for the Sanskrit spelling
> 'Sankaradeva' against Assamese spelling 'Xongkordew', is same as advocating
> for (say) the spelling 'Pankaradeba' in place of 'Xongordew' I don't see
> any difference, and I too can put forward my devil's advocacy for the
> spelling 'Pankaradeba' or any other 'bhusung pohu' spelling thus:
>
>
>
> Is 'Pankaradeba' writing not appropriate because
>
> (a) We know better - it should be Xongkordew?.
>
> (b) Because it sounds foreign, and you donot want anything foreign (Osin
> kathor thwrakw nologaba)?.
>
> (c) Its an identity crisis?
>
>
>
> With this type of advocacy, you will qualify yourself to go back to the
> basics of alphabet in Assamese and English.
>
> Rajen Barua
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ram Sarangapani
>
> To: Chan Mahanta
>
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Dilip/Dil Deka ; [email protected]
>
> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:58 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [Assam] Book on life,ideals of Sankaradeva released(The Assam
> Tribune, 1...
>
>
>
>
> C'da,
>
>
> I thought I would go to some other topic butthought I too should get a
> chance to beat this dead horse - one last time.
>
>
>
>
> >*** You have been unable to explain WHY Xonkordev should be >Sankaradeva.
>
>
>
> I am surprised, C'da - you are assuming that "I" think it should be
> Sankardeva?
>
> I had prefaced my argument with "devil's advocate' and my feelings on this
> are:
>
>
>
> Is writing out "Sankaradeva" not appropriate because
>
> (a) We know better now - it should be Xonkordeva
>
> (b) Because it is Sankritized (and we want nothing to do with that)
>
> (c) Its an identity crises
>
>
>
> Just wanted to make sure we want it to be Xonkordev because that is how the
> Assamese prononce it - thats it - the best reason. Nothing else matters.
>
> Why bring in stuff like identity, Sankritized, Hindi influence, or even the
> logical abilities of past literary people?
>
>
>
> >*** Like Rajen explained very well, Oxomiya language does not >need
> Xongskrit or Hindi or Bengali approval to stand on its own
>
>
>
> And did "I" claim it did? Not even hinted at that. Words in my mouth again.
>
>
>
> >*** Oxomiyas need to know who they are what they call >THEMSELVES, first
>
>
>
> True, and this you want to accomplish by transliterating in English? How big
> is that Oxomiya audience that seeks the English language to find out how to
> pronounce words in THEIR own language.
>
>
>
> Whats wrong with the picture here? Am I missing something, or are you guys
> just catering to a select few?
>
> I say, go for it.
>
>
>
> >Bengalis, Hindiwallas etc. are free to pronounce it or write it the >way
> they see fit among themselves. But when they come to >Assam and call their
> hosts strange names, they would do so at >their own risk.
>
>
>
> And when they do come over to Assam, you are going to help these folks to
> properly pronounce Assamese words with the help of the English language. I
> would love to see the Bihari rickshawalla browsing for this transliteration
> in Ingrezi? Good luck again.
>
>
>
> :)
>
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
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