C'da,
I know we have hashed and rehashed this topic.
Yes, a society does consist of the good, the rotten and everything in between. But your assumption that
the "middle class" somehow concocted this grand plan to exploit children is just too far-fetched.
There is a letters to the Editor (AT) today by Mr. Jibon Saikia - he wrote against the new
law banning the employment of children under 14. He brought out points such as poverty
etc for the supply of such children everywhere and the possible impact on poor people (who depend on their
childrens' income for survival).
Now, whether such a law will be able to balance such issues is yet to be seen. The fact that India is still
a poor country is not something anyone wants. Poverty does beget other problems (like child labor), corruption
and greed). Those issues would have to be dealt with - the lead taken by the Govt. and cooperation required by the public.
It will take time and such issues will hopefully be solved.
You contend that these insurgents are also apart of the society. Are they?
But they obviously do no seem to think so.
When people feel that they are a part of a society, they would at least pretend that they are doing
something good for that society. They do not sell pipe-dreams and threaten people,
nor do they use that society's children as cannon fodder.
--Ram
On 10/20/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ram:
>It is not as if all of the middle class got together and hashed it out in some room - wage an exploitationcampaign on children. While you are right that there is the greed factor, but those are individuals who want to>take advantage of the helpless.
*** So this is merely a problem associated with bad guys, greedy people, and since they are not a part of the good folks who comprise "society" , it should not be cited, right :-)?
Do you see the fallacy of your argument Ram ?
>Now by blaming the whole middle class, you are not falling into the same 'all of them are responsible'>argement (that I am often accused of) :)?
*** WHO exactly is SOCIETY made up of Ram? Only the good guys? Or does it include ALL? I realize 'India' is always the good folks. The bad folks are not a part of it. But does that argument hold any water?
Now IF -- forgive me here if I am putting words in your mouth --- that'society' is made up of all, WHO do you think is RESPONSIBLE for its order and upholding and improving its QUALITY ? Those who are uneducated, those who totter on the edge of survival? Or those who are its back-bone, the middle class, its establishment?
And IF this backbone of 'society' cannot or wouldn't do anything about the appalling child abuse and exploitation in its midst, who would YOU hold responsible Ram?
>And when a society matures and gets it moral bearings, erring individuals can >be broght to book.
*** I am so relieved!
>The GOI has now passed a law against employing young children be it as domestic >help or 'saa dokans'.
*** Redemption, finally arrived!!
>It will take time for a society to be educated that it is wrong to exploit >children. ----
*** You are very understanding Ram. I give you high marks for your fairness.
The only thing you missed was in NOT saying out loud what you implied: "That such understanding however is not available for them "independence seeking terrorists". Because:
>But insurgents can hardly ever be educated to make them>understand that killing/using children is just plain wrong.*** What can I say Ram? You said all you needed to. I am also sure it is not something you pulled out of your hat, but collected from the wisdom of nations across the globe, and from all of recorded history :-).c-da
At 6:24 PM -0500 10/19/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:C'da,>*** No Ram -- Indian middle-classes' child abuse is NOT unplanned!>It is a result of its pursuit of its self interests--its OWN happiness,>on the backs of expendable people, further compounded by an abject absence of moral and>ethical compunctions in an environment of the intellectual wasteland it is.It is not as if all of the middle class got together and hashed it out in some room - wage an exploitationcampaign on children. While you are right that there is the greed factor, but those are individuals who want totake advantage of the helpless.Now by blaming the whole middle class, you are not falling into the same 'all of them are responsible'argement (that I am often accused of) :)?And when a society matures and gets it moral bearings, erring individuals can be broght to book.The GOI has now passed a law against employing young children be it as domestic help or 'saa dokans'.It will take time for a society to be educated that it is wrong to exploit children. But insurgents can hardly ever be educated to make themunderstand that killing/using children is just plain wrong.>PS: You certainly found a very persuasive analogy with Beslan Ram :-).I assume you think this isn't a possibility. I think the way things are, it isn't too remote.--Ram
On 10/19/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The difference, C'da, what the ULFA did was planned and coordinated, while the >other, bad and rotten as it is, was 'not planned or intentional'
*** No Ram -- Indian middle-classes' child abuse is NOT unplanned! It is a result of its pursuit of its self interests--its OWN happiness, on the backs of expendable people, further compounded by an abject absence of moral and ethical compunctions in an environment of the intellectual wasteland it is.
And even if it were not planned, the net effect is the same, actually far worse and far far more widespread than the alleged ULFA transgression, reprehensible as it is.
c-da
PS: You certainly found a very persuasive analogy with Beslan Ram :-).
At 3:26 PM -0500 10/19/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da,
>*** I don't know what a Beslan is, but if you or others are surprised by the steady deterioration of the situation over the decades, then it only goes >to underscore the living in denial.Beslan is in Russia, where in Sept. 04, school children (among adults) were held hostage by Islamic jehadists from Chechnia and were murdered one by one execution style in front of other children and parents/adults.No, I am not surprised by some 'detoriation'. What else can one expect?>But if it REALLY is so, how can you suggest that the grotesque child abuse perpetrated>and perpetuated by India's middle class--its establishment , is somehow NOT nearly as>bad as the purported employment of children by ULFA to plant bombs?You are comparing apples to oranges. Was this a planned, coordinated effort by the middle class in India to exploit children?What is this 'middle class establishement' you are talking about. I was in the middle class while in India, and so were most of us. How come we never got invited to join the club?The difference, C'da, what the ULFA did was planned and coordinated, while the other, bad and rotten as it is, was 'not planned or intentional'--Ram
On 10/19/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ram:
>So, as insurgents get desperate, children are at stake. When can we expect a >Beslan?
*** I don't know what a Beslan is, but if you or others are surprised by the steady deterioration of the situation over the decades, then it only goes tounderscore the living in denial.
Kashmir, Sri Lanka, Palestine ---- all have demonstrated, in vivid colors, how from very low intensity guerilla fighting have, over the decades, reachedsuicide-bombings. One could only wonder what could be in the offing next.
Assam is hardly any different. GoI's stonewalling in collusion with Assam's establishment and the desi-intelligentsia's well-known clueless-ness to the quality of their democracy ( while frothing in the mouth singing its glories),has been the singular cause of what we see today.
>All murders are bad, C'da. To the victims of secret killings or even the >families of ulfa cadres the loss of their loved ones is terrible. Nothing that >you or me or the GOI or the ULFA can make it right.
*** That is touching Ram :-).
But if it REALLY is so, how can you suggest that the grotesque child abuse perpetrated and perpetuated by India's middle class--its establishment , is somehow NOT nearly as bad as the purported employment of children by ULFA to plant bombs?
>But as a society, we specially have a much softer corner for children. And when >their innocence is used for ulfa's or the GOI's advantage, it doesn't speak >well of the perpetrators.
*** I don't know if GoI uses children to advance their mission, just as I cannot be certain that ULFA does.
But what about Indian society? Does it or does it not, in a scale unprecedented in the history of humanity, indulge in the most heinous child abuse, and with complete impunity?
And is this the SAME society you refer to as having " ---a much softer corner for children"? What society is this?
> Yes, millions of children everywhere in the world are exploited - even in the US.
*** Heh-heh :-)! The ol' 'everybody does that' defense, huh? Does not cut it though Ram. The MAGNITUDE does matter, even though it is convenient not to consider.
>This is a societal problem.*** Tell me about it!>But just because the society is derelict or hasn't been able to provide the best for our >children,----**** Must be quite acceptable, right?>--it certainly does not mean insurgent elements take that as a cue to send children >into >.harms way?
*** And the reason being what again Ram? Because ULFA is not a part of society?Being extra-terrestrial and thus liable to be held to a higher standard, they could be demonized, while the same Indians play no-see,no-hear and no-speak ofthe child abuse they not only see around them everyday but participate in actively in vast numbers amongst its wealthiest and 'educated' sectors?
That indeed is a highly insightful proposition Ram. But you know what, nothing could be a better illustration of Bhutor mukhot Ram naam :-).
>It may seem so. But the reality is that it does hurt when children are used in >this way.
*** No kidding!
>If the GOI were to send India's children to fight its wars with Pakistan or >fight insurgencies,
*** You are good man. Since GoI has all the millions of canon-fodders, they don't need to go recruit children to do their dirty job on the Assamese, or the Manipuris, or the Kshmiris or the Naxals across the country, leaving ULFA conveniently alone there to be pilloried!
>---my indignation would have been similar or more.
*** I don't know anyone charging you with abetting child-abuse Ram. You've got to stop responding like this every time you get trapped in your own arguments, lest people start reading it like " Gwxain ghorot kwn--moi kol khowa nai" :-).
Take care.
c-da
At 6:12 PM -0500 10/18/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da,
>The point is about the continuation of the conflict spanning over two decades, getting worse over time. And as the >asymmetry widens, so does the desperation and its resultant by-products.So, as insurgents get desperate, children are at stake. When can we expect a Beslan?>Will you have the courage to face the victims of the 'secret killings' of Assam to suggest that their loss is not nearly >as bad as, say the children of Dhakuakhana, since the former was perpetrated by unknown evil people, while the >latter was, to be reasonably suspected to be by ULFA?All murders are bad, C'da. To the victims of secret killings or even the families of ulfa cadres the loss of their loved ones is terrible. Nothing that you or me or the GOI or the ULFA can make it right.But as a society, we specially have a much softer corner for children. And when their innocence is used for ulfa's or the GOI's advantage, it doesn't speak well of the perpetrators.>Or can you, with a straight face argue, that the millions of children of India scouring garbage piles left by the Great Indian Middle Class' >consumption , for the struggle to survive and dying untimely deaths, homeless, hungry, bereft of the most rudimentary of the necessities of life, is >somehow not nearly as grotesque as children used to plant bombs by insurgent groups ?Whats your point C'da? Yes, millions of children everywhere in the world are exploited - even in the US. This is a societal problem. But just because the society is derelict or hasn't been able to provide the best for our children, it certainly does not mean insurgent elements take that as a cue to send children into harms way?>The outrage is SELECTIVE and CONVENIENT, designed to make political pointsIt may seem so. But the reality is that it does hurt when children are used in this way. There are no excuses here. If the GOI were to send India's children to fight its wars with Pakistan or fight insurgencies, my indignation would have been similar or more.--Ram
On 10/18/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ram:
The point is about the continuation of the conflict spanning over two decades, getting worse over time. And as the asymmetry widens, so does the desperation and its resultant by-products.
Do GoI's honchos huddle in the backrooms of the palace to connive to let loose the army , armed with AFSPA and other such devices, on the Assamese, or Kashmiris or the myriads of groups across India?
One would have to say, NO. It does not happen that way.
But the NET EFFECT is the same, isn't it?
Does it matter to its ultimate victims whether it is an outcome out of connivance of a few evil people, or universal exploitation or benign apathy?
Will you have the courage to face the victims of the 'secret killings' of Assam to suggest that their loss is not nearly as bad as, say the children of Dhakuakhana, since the former was perpetrated by unknown evil people, while the latter was, to be reasonably suspected to be by ULFA?
Or can you, with a straight face argue, that the millions of children of India scouring garbage piles left by the Great Indian Middle Class' consumption , for the struggle to survive and dying untimely deaths, homeless, hungry, bereft of the most rudimentary of the necessities of life, is somehow not nearly as grotesque as children used to plant bombs by insurgent groups?
Or maimed and deformed children begging on the streets of great Indian cities, plucking their scabs to bleed a little more, to compete with those others whose wounds are not nearly as bad; are nothing compared to ULFA or Kashmir militantsor tribal-Naxals exploiting their children to smuggle explosives to destroy the lives and life-styles of other INNOCENT Indians?
Give me a break Ram.
The outrage is SELECTIVE and CONVENIENT, designed to make political points andaugment the propaganda of the Indian establishment, to whom it is more important to hold on to the real-estate, of Assam, of Kashmir, and damn those who occupy the ground!
c-da
At 10:34 AM -0500 10/18/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da,>See, the Great Indian Middle Class, is soooo very kind to the children of its under->classes, it must hurt their sensitivities to see these ULFA rogues use children to do their >dirty work!This is what one would call 'spinning out of control' :)Yes, mal-treatment to children by any class of people is bad. But this mal-treatment is not an organized effort by the GOI or some state or even a group of people. What you are referring to is a social problem, and NOT a connived effort by groups of people trying to harm children.In the case of the ULFA is pure and simple - they want to save their own hides and send children to fight men's wars. These obviously are really brave men - put women & children first. Remember Bhutan - they abandoned women & children and took off. That is the backbone of the organization.Well - they may have an excuse - the whole world mistreats children - from Africa, Latin Americas to Asia (specially India) - so why shouldn't they take this a step further - let children do the dirty work and die if necessary?--Ram
On 10/18/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
No doubt Ram. You are right.
See, the Great Indian Middle Class, is soooo very kind to the children of its under-classes, it must hurt their sensitivities to see these ULFA rogues use children to do their dirty work!
So, Ram, I can appreciate your, Neep's and all others' outpourings of revulsion with something like this, and your disgust with those who see only GoI's insincerity and its supporters' hypocrisies.
But somehow Ram, this 'odhom' doesn't quite buy it.
c-da :-)
At 10:01 AM -0500 10/18/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da,This one you cannot spin. That ulfa is willing to put children on the frontlines (instead of risking their own sweet hides) speaks volumes of their world view.Even if their cause was worthwhile, and the GOI and others are the ones that forced them to become insurgents, it still doesn't compute.This organization who claim to be the one looking after Assam's interests, is all so willing to goad children into doing the dirty work and bear all the risks.This is a new low, however you cut it.--Ram
On 10/18/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If the recent history of such conflicts worldwide is any guide, it could be expected to hit even lower, as the stalemate progresses and the asymmetry of the conflict increases.
What is confounding is the smugness with which the party that holds all the cards would not do its share to find a negotiated solution, while waving its oh-so-pious wishes to the world.
Be it in Assam, be it in Nagaland, be it in Kashmir, be it in Sri Lanka.
Hypocrisy obviously has no bounds.
At 8:41 AM -0500 10/18/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
This is a new low.On 10/18/06, Neep Hazarika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/oct/18asom.htm
---
Neep Hazarika
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