GUWAAL Gaali may strengthen your self-protective instinct to justify your
meaningless existence,but where are your avowed:
" is actually mostly young, connected, concerned, eager to help in positive
ways AND most importantly, more in sync with ...
Come up and come out with your ware.
mm
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:19:36 -0700From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL
PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: [Assam] Thoughts about how well ones own
Bangla is running
The desi intelligentsia who you consider "clueless" and "apathetic" is actually
mostly young, connected, concerned, eager to help in positive ways AND most
importantly, more in sync with todays realities than dwelling in yesterdays
prejudices....which are better than many "intelligent" NRa - non
resident/non-relevant :-)
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----From: Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Ram
Sarangapani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sunday, March 25, 2007
1:03:18 AMSubject: Re: [Assam] Thoughts about how well ones own Bangla is
running
Ram:
>And you will also have noticed that many of us have also pointed this out
>numerous times >here.
*** To tell you the truth I have NOT seen those being pointed out here, except
by one or perhaps two persons :-), whose views are usually rejected by the
defenders of desi-demokrasy.
You can contribute YOUR fair share by speaking out and pointing to the issues
that YOU see as problems Ram :-). That will place you at a level much higher
than the average desi-intelligentsia who is either clueless or apathetic or
defensive or a tossed-salad of all. The desi-intelligentsia's ABSENCE from
their governance is one of its most glaring deficiencies as *I* see it.
> To them even malgoveranance, corruption etc in Assam are also traced back to
> India - its >India's damn fault.
*** WHOSE fault do you think it is Ram? Why don't YOU tell us who it is/they are
and tell us what share of the blame they carry as seen by a fair-and-balanced
person such as yourself. And I am sure you will also give us a little
explanation of WHY you believe who the responsible parties are.
>So, maybe it NOT because they want to "destroy" India, but when they showcase
>these problems >in India, they seem to think that these are justifications for
>Assam to be free from the >clutches of the evil empire.
*** Well,YOU can tell us WHY it is NOT a reason to leave India's dysfunctional
system. Go ahead and tell the 'India-haters' how Assam can do well by itself ,
all on its own, still being controlled by Delhi's designs. I am sure you will
cite here those OTHERS who are doing splendidly on their own and how Assam can
emulate them, won't you?
>Oh! I knew you would bring that up. But you fail to realize that what Ahmad is
>>advocating for at the moment is all about Bangladesh. He is NOT advocating
>that >Bangladesh be broken up nor is he advocating the separation of say
>Khulna >district because Dhaka is incorrigible.
*** You avoided asking the question that I gave you as the clue to the answer .
Try asking that question Ram. WHY did B'Desh break from THEIR 'original'
COUNTRY, Pakistan? And why did Indians like you applauded when that happened?
I know it is one of those extremely unpalatable questions that tend to get
stuck in the craws of desi-patriots. But if you try hard enough it will come
out. And believe me, it would be a whole lot better than to present an
explanation like you did above . It is unbecoming if you asked me :-).
>ah! but you are jumping the gun here. IF Assam were already independent, and
>>then I would have joined hands here in advocating a better, democratic,
>>corruption-free Assam :)
*** I know you would Ram. I remember that well. Isn't it the credo of the POOR
folks ( Probaxi Oxomiyas Opposed to Reforms)? Or was it of the Probaxi Oxomiyas
Conditionally Opposed to Reforms :-)?
>I would rather advocate as Ahmad does for the betterment of the country that
>>exists at the moment - INDIA :).
*** Once again, show your credibility by explaining HOW. That would shut them
'anti-Indians' up.
>Bottom line C'd, one would be more amenable if criticisms against India's
>>system of governance etc,
*** But that is not a problem for those who are VICTIMS of Indian misgovernment.
That is a problem only for those who are in charge of perpetuating the
make-believe, of holding that facade of desi-demokrasy up to the world.
c-da
At 1:27 PM -0600 3/23/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da,
Sorry for not getting back earlier.
>Say NO to those who point it out, because it is anti-Indian, because it is
>merely a ploy to >DESTROY India ?
I wish it were as simple as that. I think almost everyone in this forum will
agree that there are big problems with India's (and Assam's) governance,
equitable justice, and the "system". And you will also have noticed that many
of us have also pointed this out numerous times here.
The difference between the critics (if you will) is that some are hell-bent to
find fault with India's governance as some sort of conduit for their
aspirations of Assam's independence. To them even malgoveranance, corruption
etc in Assam are also traced back to India - its India's damn fault.
So, maybe it NOT because they want to "destroy" India, but when they showcase
these problems in India, they seem to think that these are justifications for
Assam to be free from the clutches of the evil empire.
>Remember Ahmad's COUNTRY used to be Pakistan? What happened to it? And WHY?
>Ever >asked that question?
Oh! I knew you would bring that up. But you fail to realize that what Ahmad is
advocating for at the moment is all about Bangladesh. He is NOT advocating that
Bangladesh be broken up nor is he advocating the separation of say Khulna
district because Dhaka is incorrigible.
>*** And those of Assam who look out for its interests are FOR a "--united and
>truly >democratic Assam--" unlike those who are dedicated to see it NOT happen
>:-).
ah! but you are jumping the gun here. IF Assam were already independent, and
then I would have joined hands here in advocating a better, democratic,
corruption-free Assam :).
Since, Assam is not an independent country, and nor does it seem likely it will
be for at least another 50 to 100 years (if not never), I would rather advocate
as Ahmad does for the betterment of the country that exists at the moment -
INDIA :).
Bottom line C'd, one would be more amenable if criticisms against India's
system of governance etc, if the "INTENT" was to create a better, improved
India, where its a win-win situation for all. :):)
---Ram
On 3/22/07, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
Ram:
>And C'da, you hit the nail right on the head. Having read the article (several
>>times over), I completely agree with you. I too can see the "misgovernment"
>in >the Indian context.
**** And----???????
Say NO to those who point it out, because it is anti-Indian, because it is
merely a ploy to DESTROY India ?
Isn't this the best the Indian intelligentsia has been doing for decades: AGREE
something is wrong, but what CAN THEY DO about it? Sorry to see YOU in the
ranks of the clueless Ram :-). What is your excuse?
>It is intriguing, that Ahmad has NOT followed some in the subcontinent who
>seek to >divide their country.
*** HMMM! Glad you found something tasty to bite into :-). But aren't we
missing something here? Remember Ahmad's COUNTRY used to be Pakistan? What
happened to it? And WHY? Ever asked that question?
Ask it. And ye shall find the answer staring at you.
>Ahmad is for a united, and a truely democratic Bangaldesh.
*** And those of Assam who look out for its interests are FOR a "--united and
truly democratic Assam--" unlike those who are dedicated to see it NOT happen
:-).
c-da
At 6:14 PM -0500 3/21/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
Thank you Mukul da for forwarding this article by Ahmad.
And C'da, you hit the nail right on the head. Having read the article (several
times over), I completely agree with you. I too can see the "misgovernment" in
the Indian context.
I am quoting some of the sentences that Ahmad writes. They intrigue me.
(Highlights mine)
>I have spent hours debating, discussing and arguing about the developments in
>> my country, often told 'why you bother when none of this affects you, when
>your >opinions would make little difference if at all'.
>I wondered on the comments yet my brain continues to think, the >love for my
>motherland is on the rise and is showing no sign of >abating.
And, quite a few more lines like the above. Ahmad, obviously has a lot of love
and respect for his country. In spite of his take that his country has given
him precious little, he still has a great interest and is seeking ways to
improve the lot of his country.
It is intriguing, that Ahmad has NOT followed some in the subcontinent who seek
to divide their country. Nor does he seek independence for one portion or the
other because he feels his country's leaders are useless. Nor does he take up
arms because the system is broken, and there is malgovernance.
He is able to visualize all the problems, but is able to think positively on
ways to rebuild his country.
There is a big difference between what Ahmad is advocating and what some
netters may be thinking. Ahmad is for a united, and a truely democratic
Bangaldesh. This in definitely NOT what some of our esteemed netters have in
store for India :):)
--Ram
On 3/20/07, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This is a thinking man! Those Netters who read the article carefully, will see
the image of their own Indian misgovernment reflected here, accurately. He has
his fingers exactly on the problems, even though the solution proposed, while
being one of the elements of a series of measures, is not entirely adequate.
Ahmad is right about the party loyalty as a source of the problem. It is the
same thing as electioneering on party lines and NOT on ISSUES. But it is only
one of the problems. Another big issue is the effectiveness of the INSTITUTIONS
of democracy. Yet another is the ability to make the able and the willing to
participate in their governance.
I highlight some of the points below, because we discussed these too.
Unfortunately our netters were unwilling to see what stares at them. Perhaps
this article will sink in a tad bit better :-).
At 11:02 PM +0530 3/20/07, mc mahant wrote:
By Talha J Ahmad, UK
I have written extensively on the current crisis engulfing my country. I have
spent many nights and day, many hours of my busy life far away from my
homeland, I have spent hours debating, discussing and arguing about the
developments in my country, often told 'why you bother when none of this
affects you, when your opinions would make little difference if at all'. I
wondered on the comments yet my brain continues to think, the love for my
motherland is on the rise and is showing no sign of abating.
I wondered about the past of my country, present and the future. I wondered of
the patriotism of my leaders, political and otherwise, I wonder even now of the
patriotism and the genuine motives of the current government, I wonder of the
extraordinary remarks of our head of Armed forces. My wondering comes to no
end, it continues without an end on the horizon. But why do I wonder? I
pondered on possible answers to my paradox, but found none credible. However, I
guess I can confidently say all these wondering of my mind is a process
instigated by my feeling and concerns for my country, a country that has not
given me much, but I still feel indebted to. It is my love and affection for my
country, my genuine desire to see her flourish with all her children, my firm
belief on her potential that keeps telling me to wonder further and as part of
that process I seek to speculate on some ideas.The turn of 20th century has
been marked by freedom movement, wanting to be free from repressions,
colonization. People wanted to be free to speak, to earn and to work. Freedom
movement led us to have new states with new political culture.
The triumph of the last century however was the end of love for dictatorship
and the rising of a new era for democracy. Democracy seemed to have offered
hope to bring about social justice and economic freedom. Democracy has shown us
sign of empowering people and giving all citizens a way of being their own
master, the master of owns destiny.
But what has democracy really earned us? Or have we got the right kind of
democracy? Our nation for instance paid heavily for democracy, from the days of
East Pakistan to present, many hundreds of thousands of people marched at
different times to ensure democracy prospers in our land. People were made
hopeful; every one expected a better life. It was the prospect of democracy
that leads us to the bitter struggle for freedom, the war of independence; we
earned independence only to march again to slay the leaders of that
independence. We hoped of economic development, the betterment of education,
life standard, justice and equality, we have achieved some progress but we
cannot certainly say that we would have not achieved these prosperity without
all the bloods that we had to spare.
We marched, we fought, and we sacrificed to achieve economic freedom, social
justice and equality in a country where we all would be equal participants. We
hoped that in our country we would have no masters; people in power would be
accountable. We rebelled against dictators because we thought they were not
accountable to us. But democracy does not seem to have offered us
accountability either.
Our current government for example, they are said to be good, but how do we
hold them accountable? How would people seek to redress any wrongdoing
committed by current government? We have no true accountability. Only might and
might alone seem to have its way in terms of accountability, but not people.
Ordinary man and women do not seem to have the power to hold social elites
accountable. But this presents us with a dilemma.We have to have government, we
have to have some kind of people's participation in the governance of our
country, and we must have some means to hold our governments accountable. But
how? In lands of England, the Birth place of modern parliamentary democracy,
there are disaffections, the parliament elections are at times attended by as
low as only 37% of the population. Famous names with huge reputation in
politics raising their concern regarding accountability.
A former cabinet minister went as far as saying the current parliamentary
system is not capable of holding the executive accountable, and she has decided
to stand down as an MP from her party in order to campaign for a change, for a
better, more representative and accountable system. If that is the condition of
democracy in the land of where it was born, I think we can get a pretty good
idea as to where we stand. Our MPs are like our lords, they are the king,
queen, whatever one may wish to think. Our ministers are the most powerful of
people so much so that they can get away with whatever they wish, so it seems.
But how we change such situation?
Dr. Yunus and many others seem to think that corruption is the culprit and good
people entering politics may be the answer. Dr. Yunus himself decided to put
his reputation and hard earned celebrity status on the line. He will form a new
political party that will raise the hopes and aspiration of our nation. But he
will be joining a system that has failed us, there is nothing to suggest that
it was not systems fault too that we ended up with 'bad' politicians. So I
wonder why a Yunus factor should make me feel good. I do not want to think that
one man can change my country, I do not believe in super human. I would like to
think it is not just a few people who are the problem; I would like to think
that there is something with system too.
We have a very large number of educated people now, working in good jobs. Yet
many struggling to find an appropriate job. We now have a new generation of
middle class and affluent people. We no longer see the generation of trade
unionists, nor do we see the peculiar scenes of student politics. The politics
of fighting to take control of universities seem to have lessened to some
extent. The trend among the youths no longer is as strong towards joining
politics as it used to be. And that in some way is a bad sign. And I think
therein lies the first problem.Increasing economic sophistication made our
societies complex. The advancement in technology made our world a global
village. But that means our affairs now have more factors in it, our affairs
now involve a much wider ecosystem and not just us. Bangladesh is part of the
global community, and our problems needs to be thought from global perspective
too, which obviously means our affairs are now more complex and requires much
sophisticated solutions. Our thinking however has not sophisticated;
politically we are now less mature and less sophisticated. Our politics remain
the same in terms of its norms and fundamental roles.A complex society requires
extraordinary citizens who have intellectual sophistication, citizens need to
be more aware and better knowledgeable of situations, but that has not happened
to our new generation that has grown into the mainstream society now. So what
we need is a social class who command the society with understanding and clear
vision. We need a new kind of social movement that seek to re-energize our
citizens by making them intellectually sharper, more demanding and
sophisticate. We need social movement to instill in our citizens patriotism and
give them a common vision of our future.
Of course it is not enough to have a new social movement that will create a new
class of citizens who will be intellectually rich, politically aware and
sophisticated in their thinking. We need political forces and platforms that
will make good use of this new class.
We need political platform and political leaderships who understand and conform
to the desire of the people and rise to the challenge of building a new
society. But it is probably now fair to say that the current parliamentary,
party political system has failed. It is not so evident because the failure is
covered by other issues such as corruption and the style of governance.
But why do we have corruption? Corruption is merely the symptom of a bigger,
much wider failure. An effective government which is accountable to its
citizens cannot be corrupt, it is not possible. So if government or people
within government become corrupt and the system cannot stop it, it is the
systems fault and not those who actually are corrupt. The accountability issues
is not just a big issue in our country, it is an issue all over the world now.
UK, USA and most western countries have the problem too.
Current prevailing system of governance is that of the cabinet who are elected
along the party political line. Political arguments are presented along the
party identity. Loyalty lies to the party. Because of the party system which
has strong disciplinary force that seeks to suppress certain views and promote
certain others it is difficult to have true accountability. Largest party in
government occupies the position of power, when the other parties attack the
government, the whole party behind the government stand in defense.
As long as the party remains largest, there is no way we can hold the
government accountable. Some times, even all the major parties have no
significant difference between them, who should people choose in those
circumstances? Due to the existence of political parties, once again new
initiatives and thinking cannot take root. It is not a level playing field, yet
the whole essence of democracy is that all citizens should have equal
opportunities. I therefore intend to resolve that we need to fight to break the
party system; we need a new kind of politics in which citizens participate
freely without party loyalty.We should have one broad vision to unite us that
is our patriotism and our desire to form a better society. Apart from that we
should all come to play with ideas to tackle our social issues. If we can truly
demolish the party controls we can have an energize population where people
will make their case, articulate their ideas and in the end passionate people
with articulated ideas will be charged with responsibility to govern. We will
have true democracy, we will have genuine accountability.Of course, some would
say that this is an unworkable system; I would argue we cannot be so sure. Of
course we need some kind of organization. But that organization does not have
to be along the party lines. Our local meeting places, auditoriums, libraries
and social clubs could be the place to debate. A new consensus will emerge. We
can have our civil society to guide the nation in its argument. We could have
our academics, entrepreneurs and others to influence and inform debates through
their participation. But that will mark a new kind of politics which will have
no place for dynasty, no room for one man dominance and no room for corruption.
No one will be strong enough to have it all, and no body will be too weak to
have a say. Such society would be a genuinely democratic society where social
justice and equality will thrive, human dignity shall flourish
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