D Deka said on AssamNet:
+ Saurav,
+ Obviously you have collected a lot of information and have not
+ digested it yet.
otoh, dilip-da, you seem to have not only digested what i have said
but also extracted calories, vitamins and minerals that were originally
not there. :)
my request: please donot presuppose what i have written.
+ It is also obvious that you find fault with everything US government does.
how in the heavens could i have done that when i wasnt discussing
the u.s government at all? my comments in the last post were mostly on
the middle-east -- saudi arabia, iraq and iran. i mentioned the violent
situations in beirut, syria, lebanon and lately sudan. i touched on
pan arab nationalism and islamic fundamentalism. i wrote about the
special interests of the victors of world war 1 (the english and the
french), and only mentioned u.s once with reference to iran. how could
i have faulted the u.s government on *everything*.
my concern in the last post, and in this too, has been: what impact
would an invasion and occupation of iraq have on the middle-east?
+ But face it, US government has collected more intelligence than you
+ have, and Saddam Hussein is no saint.
oh, i am not in the business of intelligence. you mistake readily
and openly available history of the middle-east for intelligence.
and nowhere have i said saddam is a saint. he is a dictator who has
ruled his people with an iron fist, by oppression and terror. these
are exactly the words i used in my last post.
+ Without the US army at its doorstep, do you think Saddam would
+ have done the minimum that he is doing now?
no.
+ UN and its inspectors would have no clout without the threat of
+ arms against Iraq.
noone understands this better than hans blix himself. it has been
fascinating to watch him play the u.s against saddam, but not give
the u.s enough for a war.
+ Now, should there be a war? Definitely not.
i am glad that you think so.
+ but Saddam must go.
i can expect governments to demand this. but what is *your*
interest?
+ If he goes into exile and Iraq has democracy, it will be welcome
+ by all like me.
what exactly do you mean by democracy? would you agree to give the
iraqis a voice of their own? would you agree to a kurdistan? would
you agree to the shias in the south joining iran?
+ I am sure USA wants to get into Iraq and make sure that the
+ next administration is controlled from washington DC. Do I accept
+ it today? I don't.
why not? you seem to think it is mandatory for democracy in the
middle-east.
+ Shall I accept it tomorrow when I know more about the next move? I may.
forgive me, but this is classic dilip-da-esque :). you are very
careful to keep an escape route open.
+ DD: All of what you have stated above is correct but that is old
+ news. The latest calls for Jihad and terrorism are due to the
+ fear of the Muslim religious fanatics that western culture will
+ change the followers of Islamism and Islamism as known to the
+ religious leaders will disappear. Where have you been?
i might have been sleeping and have missed some intelligence that you
gathered. so do share. tell us how islamists in recent years have
been threatened by democracy and democratic values from the west. which
actions of the west threated to install democracy in the middle
east, especially saudi arabia?
+ DD: I admire the ancient civilizations. Islamic civilization was
+ great in the past but it got stagnant just like many other
+ civilizations. Every civilization has its heydays and now it is
+ the turn of the western civilization (not christian, mind you). It
+ will also disappear someday.
you may think of this as a clash of civilizations, but there are
other ways of looking at the history of mankind.
common men and women, have always desired freedom from oppression
and terror. in this, one thing stands out though. freedom cannot
be given. it can only be taken, asserted, snatched. that was
what happened in 1776 in america, and during the french revolution.
lesser mortals asserted their rights with the magna carta in the
face of sovereign might. yet, the british and the french, steeped
as they are in the nectar of democracy, went on to enslave the
entire world. other people, including the americans, in their
turn, had to assert their own freedom and democracy from these
tyrannical powers.
democracy and democratic values cannot be exported or imported.
they can only be produced in local cottage industries for local
consumption. western civilization works best in the west. let
others choose their own paths. democracy and democratic values not
fought for are also easily lost.
+ DD: It not only reached the shores of USA, it was the mother of
+ all terrorist acts. Like Pearl Harbor, it awakened the Americans
+ to the terrorist world. Since it has got America's attention now,
+ America will not rest till there is no more terrorist threat of
+ this caliber against USA. The current administration is committed
+ to that. It has nothing to do with partisanship or economic benefits
+ to some as alleged by some.
yes, 9/11 awakened america to the dangers of middle-east. if it
was a shock to you, it means you were not paying attention to
the middle-east. the u.s has been under attack in the middle-east
for 20-30 years now. 9/11 was the day this violence reached the
shores of the u.s. now that you have woken up, you should probably
look at the region and understand what is happening there. if
you dont know the place well enough, how can you assert that some
specific action (war) will lead to the desired result (peace)?
+ DD: I haven't muddled anything up. Why was Iraq chosen to make changes
+ in that part of the world? As I stated in my earlier note, USA had to
+ start somewhere and Iraq with its past records was the easiest to pick.
+ Just wait and see how it spreads. Saudis will pay their price also.
+ There is enough evidence to show how fundamentalism and terrorism
+ originated there.
we would understand you better if you showed us the evidence.
+ DD: Do you think US is that naive that they haven't thought of
+ these things? Every day there are scores of newspaper articles
+ just on this subject.
i am not trying to convince the u.s. i am making arguments against
you, dilip-da. i want you to answer.
+ DD: You are forgetting that both world wars started in Europe and
+ spread to the rest of the world including the colonies and USA.
+ Colonialism? Which colonies did Germany have?
in a way the present stand-off is about europe itself. with a host
of european countries supporting the u.s, france and germany had to
take a stand. the europeans see this crisis as something that goes
beyond iraq. the americans, otoh, think it is only about iraq.
in the world wars, germany had gone into war because it had lost the
colonial race.
+ DD: It was then and let's talk about now.
as the nytimes has editorialized, the worst-case scenerio is the
whole international system unravelling. let us see.
+ DD: I wish the world citizens had learned to say no to war
+ forever. But it is not so. Their 'no' is simply a reaction to
+ US supremacy in the world today.
you may attribute any motive you want, but still it is out there.
there is a strong public opinion against war. in the u.s too.
+ DD: I have read and also listened to many, and then formed my
+ own conclusion. If someone can convince me with rational
+ information, I am willing to change. But I haven't seen it so
+ far. If you are thinking I take in, bait, hook and sinker,
+ whatever Washington DC throws at me, you don't know me yet, Saurav.
i bet you dont take in everything washington dc throws at you,
especially when clinton is in the white house :).
for us to know you, you must stop talking like an insider, and start
talking like a regular citizen. governments today are strong enough
to take care of themselves :)
--
saurav
_______________________________________________
Assam mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam
