> -----Original Message-----[several very good point deleted]From: Brian Capouch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 12:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] VONAGE or IP Dialtone
Not necessarily preposterous; I would certainly allow that its optimality is arguable.
Thank you. Well stated, and you saved me the typing ;) Find me SIP termination with unlimited minutes at a reasonable flat rate to US destinations that works natively with * and I'll dump Vonage tomorrow (and deal with the rest).
Seriously....please?
Daryl
(Let me preface this: I applaud Vonage for their product; it's opening up VoIP in the residential market, and that's great news for all of us. I think they've done a great marketing job, and they will undoubtedly be successful in the residential space.)
Daryl -
You will probably never find a flat-rate provider that offers that service without major handcuffs. My comments about Vonage being preposterous are due to not only their restrictions on giving out a userid/password that have been paid for; let me elaborate: Most of my customers are business customers. Even those people who are not business customers (friends, family, etc.) are tele-commuters sporadically. Looking at Vonage's terms of service, any type of business use is prohibited, which eliminates them as a possible candidate for almost 100% of the people who have asked me to recommend a VoIP provider. "Preposterous" is an adequate word to describe their limitations and contractual wording.
I suspect Vonage will eliminate their flat rate pricing sometime in the near future, but that is purely speculative. They're harvesting the most abusive customers as their base, and that will come back around to bite them.
Queries to Vonage about giving a business rate (minute-based at some low price) have been like talking to a brick wall. If they changed some of their contract wording, allowed me to use their service with Asterisk, and opened up a per-minute plan for "business" users, I'd be interested. But that's not their market, and that's fine - they know where the money is, so they should not try to satisfy markets in which they don't feel there is significant return.
Let me give a brief overview of why I won't recommend Vonage to even residential users:
From Vonage's terms of service:
Firstly, why businesses shouldn't use it:
1.2 Residential Use of Service and Device
The Service and Device are provided to you as a residential user, for your personal, residential, non-business and non-professional use. This means that you are not using them for any commercial or governmental activities, profit-making or non-profit, including but not limited to home office, business, sales, tele-commuting, tele-marketing, continuous autodialing, fax broadcast, fax blasting or any other activity that would be inconsistent with normal residential usage patterns. This also means that you are not to resell or transfer the Service or the Device to any other person for any purpose, or make any charge for the use of the Service, without express written permission from Vonage in advance. You agree that your use of the Service and/or Device, or the use of the Service and/or Device provided to you by any other person for any commercial or governmental purpose will obligate you to pay Vonage's higher rates for commercial service on account of all periods, including past periods, in which you use, or used, the Service for commercial or governmental purposes. Vonage reserves the right to immediately terminate or modify the Service, if Vonage determines, in its sole discretion, that Customer's Service is being used for non-residential or commercial use.
Secondly, why people who value their rights shouldn't use it:
"1.3.1 Prohibited Uses:
You agree to use the Service and Device only for lawful purposes. This means that you agree not to use them for transmitting or receiving any illegal, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, obscene, sexually explicit, profane, racially or ethnically disparaging remarks or otherwise objectionable material of any kind, including but not limited to any material that encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to a civil liability, or otherwise violate any applicable local, state, national or international law. Vonage reserves the right to terminate your service immediately and without advance notice if Vonage, in its sole discretion, believes that you have violated the above restrictions, leaving you responsible for the full month's charges to the end of the current term, including without limitation unbilled charges, plus a disconnect fee, all of which immediately become due and payable. You are liable for any and all use of the Service and/or Device by any person making use of the Service or Device provided to you. If Vonage, in its sole discretion believes that you have violated the above restrictions, Vonage may forward the objectionable material, as well as your communications with Vonage and your personally identifiable information to the appropriate authorities for investigation and prosecution."
This wording is overly broad. The part I find especially disturbing is "...may forward the objectionable material..." Does this mean that Vonage is recording my calls without getting legal permission to do so? If someone tells Vonage that they've been offended by my repeated swearing on conference calls, does that permit Vonage to cancel my service? Reading this strictly, it is possible for Vonage to argue that the purchaser of the service is the only person that may use it, and you may not allow others to make calls on the system.
Thirdly, why people who live in countries other than the United States shouldn't use it:
"1.3.2 Use of Service and Device by Customers Outside the United States:
While we encourage use of the Service for calls from the United States to other countries, Vonage does not presently offer the Service to customers located in other countries. If you remove the Device to a country other than the United States and use the Service from there, you do so at your own risk, including the risk that such activity violates local laws in the country where you do so. Vonage reserves the right to terminate your service immediately and without advance notice if Vonage, in its sole discretion, believes that you have violated the above restrictions or if you use or attempt to use the Service from any country other than the United States, leaving you responsible for the full month's charges to the end of the current term, including without limitation unbilled charges, plus a disconnect fee, all of which immediately become due and payable. You are liable for any and all use of the Service and/or Device by any person making use of the Service or Device provided to you."
So, pretty much, you're shafted if you're not a US resident if Vonage decides to shaft you, or your government tells Vonage that all traffic originating from IP address range x.y.z.a/16 should be refused.
There are even more stupid and useless legal stipulations embedded into the agreement, some of which in fact are illegal, some of which are contradictory, but I won't even get into those. Anyone signing something like this is either very desperate and is willing to trade quite a few of their rights in exchange for cheap long distance, or has not actually read the contract. Granted, you can get your rights back (maybe) by not paying the $49.99, but I tend to put my money where my mouth is and I don't do business with companies that have such broadly worded contracts.
Iconnecthere.com has some less disturbing, but similar clauses, but their wording is much tighter and I can almost agree with it, but I'm not going to go into other services and their legal flaws.
JT _______________________________________________ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
