Hi Mathew I seem to have missed something! Your reply seems to indicate that the GPCertificate is upgradable to a GPLicence in Australia. Is that correct and how would one go about it?
Cheers Bernard > On 6 Feb 2017, at 4:36 pm, Matthew Scutter <yellowplant...@gmail.com> wrote: > > The GPL exists and it is real. You can get one right now. It's a lot of > expensive CASA paperwork (I do begrudge the GFA for a few odd things, but > they do an excellent job shielding us from CASA paperwork). > Though there seems to be a widespread misunderstanding that having a licence > means you can just go to a foreign country, jump in a glider and fly. It does > nothing of the sort. You still need to validate your licence with the local > authority, often at great time and expense. For my german validation for WGC > last year, I had to pay hundreds of Euros and communicate via FAX (yes! > really! they don't 'do' email) to get a 2 week validation. At the end of the > process there was an error in their interpretation of my request and they > issued me a single day validation. Amending this error required paying the > full fee again and starting from scratch. > The only difference now that we have the licence, is we actually have > something to fax them other than our logbook, which gets over the very first > hurdle of "where's your equivalent licence?". We are now on level footing > with the rest of the non-EASA world and it's as good as it's going to get > short of CASA joining EASA (GOD HELP US ALL) or some kind of fasttrack > validation agreement between CASA/GFA/EASA (plausible?). > > > >I am pretty sure that up till the mid 2000s, people flying German (and most > >other European countries) gliders on the old GFA white card were doing it > >strictly illegally, just no one asked > Yes, this is my understanding too. Even pilots who think they are doing the > right thing are often not. For example, a validation to fly a German > glider... only allows you to fly German gliders in Germany. Almost any glider > you rent for a foreign WGC will not come from the country hosting the WGC - > i.e. German glider taken to Poland. > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Future Aviation Pty. Ltd. > <ec...@internode.on.net <mailto:ec...@internode.on.net>> wrote: > Hi Ulrich > > One of the reasons for implementing the GPC was to allow our (competition) > pilots to fly in countries > that require a proper pilot licence, However, after almost 10 years the GPC > is still NOT recognised > overseas and I can’t help but feel that the watering down of the original > requirements has something > to do with it. > > I did not wait any longer and extended my German Glider Pilot Licence for > self launching gliders and > for touring motor gliders - at very considerable expense in time and money, I > might add. > > A licence might be a dirty word for some but one way to overcome all these > issues is to take the next > step and upgrade the GPCertificate to a GPLicence. Like others, I would be > keen to learn why this > has not been progressed. > > Richard, can you find out and enlighten the rest of us, please? > > Many thanks and kind regards > > Bernard > > > >> On 6 Feb 2017, at 1:00 pm, Ulrich Stauss <usta...@internode.on.net >> <mailto:usta...@internode.on.net>> wrote: >> >> The main aim – to provide a piece of paper or plastic that is recognised >> overseas – was not achieved. >> The GPL, as I understand it, is now supposed to allow glider pilots to fly >> overseas (BUT not in Australia). Just out of interest, has anyone actually >> done that yet? >> >> Also, if my understanding is correct it is possible fly a self-launcher with >> a C certificate (plus corresponding training/endorsement) under the >> supervision of an instructor(?). And now the call from someone within the >> upper rungs of the GFA that “anyone cleared to fly a Self Launcher >> automatically has L2 OPS annotated on GPC“. Hmmm. Maybe the people who (want >> to) doctor around with the MOSP should actually read and (try to) understand >> it. >> >> Ulrich >> >> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au >> <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au>] On Behalf Of Future >> Aviation Pty. Ltd. >> Sent: Monday, 6 February 2017 09:57 >> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. >> <aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au <mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>> >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW >> >> Hi Richard >> >> Please count me in! >> I have held a L2 independent operator endorsement for the last 25 years and >> can operate without any restrictions or interference by others. >> The same should apply for other suitably qualified pilots who often even >> hold a PPL. After all, they have been examined on such issues as >> airspace, weather assessment, radio procedures, handling of emergencies, air >> law etc. >> >> Obviously CASA saw fit to allow them independent and unsupervised >> operations. Why can't we do the same??? >> >> Bernard >> >> >>> On 5 Feb 2017, at 4:06 pm, Richard Frawley <rjfraw...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:rjfraw...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> i put my hand up to take this to the exec. who else (must be GFA member) i >>> can count on for support? >>> >>> step 1: anyone cleared to fly a Self Launcher automatically has L2 OPS >>> annotated on GPC (will that work?) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 5 Feb 2017, at 4:10 pm, James McDowall <james.mcdowal...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:james.mcdowal...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Elsewhere in this discussion it was noted that the majority of GFA new >>>> registrations last year were powered. The interests of these people need >>>> to be accommodated NOW, not when the powerless gliders can't be launched >>>> because it is too expensive or I just cant move my zimmer frame fast >>>> enough to run a wing. This will encourage investment. Also GFA needs to >>>> develop a system of permitting retrofits of power systems (by using the >>>> experimental certificates provisions) to add value to un-powered gliders. >>>> Cutting loose independent operators (from clubs) will remove the liability >>>> that CFI's and RTO's fear. That is operators hold a GPL or GPC issued by >>>> GFA and simply agree to fly according to the operational arrangements >>>> approved by CASA under CAO 95.4. >>>> I am reminded of a couple of quotes attributed to Edmund Burke: >>>> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do >>>> nothing." and "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good >>>> conscience to remain silent." >>>> but most all a common saying: >>>> “Some people make things happen. Some people watch things happen. And then >>>> there are those who wonder, 'What the hell just happened?” >>>> >>>> I think most of the gliding fraternity will wake up one day and "what the >>>> hell happened"? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Richard Frawley <rjfraw...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:rjfraw...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> It is well know that the biggest resistance by far to the current GPC >>>>> change (which was a good step forward) was by instructors and especially >>>>> CFI’S and RTO’s >>>>> >>>>> I would be more than happy to help champion the issuance of GPC as >>>>> equivalent to Level 2 Independent ops, but I can tell you now it will the >>>>> CFI’s and Panels that will resist the most >>>>> >>>>> Given however the small number of self launchers, this requirements is >>>>> still moot. >>>>> >>>>> As long as you still need others (tugs, wing runners, ropes) there is no >>>>> true independence and their in lies the root cause. >>>>> >>>>> Bring on the world of electric self launchers and true independence, the >>>>> sooner the better and even then it only really comes if its private owner >>>>> or small syndicate. >>>>> >>>>> Club aircraft will always be over protected. This is the nature of a >>>>> shared asset. Shared asserts by human nature are never as well looked >>>>> after as those owned. (rental cars + public transport vs the private car) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 5 Feb 2017, at 2:28 pm, Future Aviation Pty. Ltd. >>>>>> <ec...@internode.on.net <mailto:ec...@internode.on.net>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi James, hello all >>>>>> >>>>>> I have argued along exactly the same lines when I was on the panel as >>>>>> the head coach for SA. >>>>>> >>>>>> Coming from a different country I was bewildered that there is no formal >>>>>> qualification for glider pilots in Australia. I argued >>>>>> for a Glider Pilot Licence (GPL) instead of a Glider Pilot Certificate >>>>>> (GPC) but I was told that only CASA has the authority >>>>>> to issue licences. The GFA wanted to retain control and for mainly this >>>>>> reason we are now stuck with a certificate rather >>>>>> than a licence. A certificate is (almost) worthless but a licence >>>>>> implies that you can operate free of interference by others. >>>>>> >>>>>> For years (or should I say decades) I have argued that the current >>>>>> system is no longer appropriate and need urgent fixing. >>>>>> Please let me commend Mark Newton for articulating this major problem >>>>>> accurately and publicly. He has expressed what >>>>>> many disgruntled glider pilots have long complained about privately and >>>>>> what has caused a lot of bad publicity for gliding >>>>>> over the years. I know that it has prevented many other potential >>>>>> aviators to join. This will continue until suitably qualified >>>>>> pilots can freely operate outside of the supervision of instructors who >>>>>> in many cases have much less knowledge, less >>>>>> know-how, less experience and far less competence than the pilot(s) >>>>>> involved. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hasten to add that I have not experienced an abuse of power by >>>>>> instructors panels or CFIs but I’m aware of the fact that >>>>>> this has occurred in other parts of the country. In too many cases the >>>>>> affected individuals have left the sport or switched to >>>>>> power flying where they were treated with the respect they deserve. >>>>>> Let’s not forget that the power jockey's gain came at >>>>>> our expense! Their member base is still increasing while our numbers are >>>>>> largely on the decline. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can’t help but feel that we have lived with the current system for >>>>>> such a long time that many of us are unwilling to even >>>>>> contemplate a system that makes for truly independent pilots. In the >>>>>> medium term it will undoubtedly be another nail in the >>>>>> gliding coffin down under. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, gliding is not yet in the coffin, and we should not lose hope >>>>>> altogether. Some of you might recall my series of articles >>>>>> with the title “Time for a change?”. These articles were published in >>>>>> 'Gliding Australia’ and proved to be the trigger for the GFA >>>>>> to implement the GPC. However, to my way of thinking this should have >>>>>> only been the first step. The logical next step would >>>>>> be to bring our system in line with best overseas practices. >>>>>> Unfortunately it won’t happen if we don’t get organised and if we >>>>>> don’t drive the necessary changes at grass root level. Only when we push >>>>>> very hard and collectively will we stand a chance >>>>>> to convince the GFA to act and that is time to act NOW. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards to all >>>>>> >>>>>> Bernard >>>>>> >>>>>> PS: On request I will make my articles “Time for a change?” available to >>>>>> members of this great forum. I just love it!!!! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5 Feb 2017, at 9:13 am, James McDowall <james.mcdowal...@gmail.com >>>>>>> <mailto:james.mcdowal...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CFI's (Cheif Flying Instructors) responsibility should end when you get >>>>>>> a GPC (which really should be a GPL valid in Australia). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Richard Frawley <rjfraw...@gmail.com >>>>>>> <mailto:rjfraw...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Yes, the GFA has operational responsibility as that is what is >>>>>>>> imparted and set up to do, but the key and central relationship still >>>>>>>> remains between CASA and the Pilot. If you breach airspace are they >>>>>>>> going to chase the GFA? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If anyone thinks that you can get a better deal from CASA in terms of >>>>>>>> the required process and structure, then you are most welcome to get >>>>>>>> on the GFA exec and give it a go. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Given what CASA demanded in order that the community keep what freedom >>>>>>>> we have (ie not go to a GA style process), no one will will argue that >>>>>>>> what we have is not a compromise, but I can tell you that without the >>>>>>>> 2+ years lot of effort went into the last major round with CASA we >>>>>>>> would be a lot worse off. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you think that anyone in the last few series of GFA exec teams >>>>>>>> wanted to keep any of the current structure for their own personal >>>>>>>> empowerment, how wrong you are. It simply means you have not met or >>>>>>>> known the people involved nor being involved the activities that were >>>>>>>> required. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The only abuse of ‘power’ I have personally observed has been at the >>>>>>>> CFI and associated Instructor Panel level. Unfortunately, in the >>>>>>>> current structure they are not actually accountable to anyone and can >>>>>>>> put rules and process in place as they wish. In this sadly, I have >>>>>>>> seen some club members treated quite badly and without justification. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5 Feb 2017, at 7:28 am, James McDowall <james.mcdowal...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:james.mcdowal...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nonsense, as the document says the parties to the agreement are the >>>>>>>>> GFA and CASA. Sure, I agree to the rules of the association which may >>>>>>>>> include the Operational regulations referred to in CAO 95.4 (which >>>>>>>>> are different to GFA's Operational regulations) but members are not >>>>>>>>> party to the agreement entered into by the incorporated separate >>>>>>>>> legal entity that is the GFA. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 10:44 PM, Richard Frawley <rjfraw...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:rjfraw...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Did you know that the Deed with Casa is between the glider pilot and >>>>>>>>>> CASA >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 4 Feb 2017, at 11:06 pm, Mark Newton <new...@atdot.dotat.org >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:new...@atdot.dotat.org>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 4 Feb 2017, at 5:55 PM, Greg Wilson <g...@gregwilson.id.au >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:g...@gregwilson.id.au>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> One low cost step toward improving the gliding "product" would be >>>>>>>>>>>> to make GPC holders responsible for their own flying instead of >>>>>>>>>>>> relying on a L2 instructor's presence at launch. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I can understand how the current system evolved from clubs wanting >>>>>>>>>>>> to control pilots in their aircraft but surely it's time for this >>>>>>>>>>>> outdated system to be relinquished. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It didn't evolve from clubs wanting to control pilots in their >>>>>>>>>>> aircraft. It evolved from GFA wanting to control club operations. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> GFA implements a chain of command: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Pilot -> Duty Instructor -> CFI -> RTO -> CTO -> (CASA, but we're >>>>>>>>>>> not meant to believe that) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Each link in the chain is, as previously observed, equivalent to a >>>>>>>>>>> "rank." Authority flows downwards, with each layer following the >>>>>>>>>>> command of the layer above. Responsibility flows upwards: The duty >>>>>>>>>>> instructor is "responsible" for the operation (how? never really >>>>>>>>>>> defined). The CFI is "responsible" for the panel. And so on. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sitting at the middle of everything is GFA, HQ, setting policy >>>>>>>>>>> centrally, implemented by the chain of command. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It's all right there in the MOSP ("standing orders.") >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I speculated earlier that it happened like this in the 1950s >>>>>>>>>>> because so many of the early GFA people had military aviation >>>>>>>>>>> involvement, so setting up a command hierarchy would've been a >>>>>>>>>>> natural way to approach civilian aviation. Society was a lot more >>>>>>>>>>> hierarchical then too. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It isn't anymore. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Enough discussion here may even start movement in that direction >>>>>>>>>>>> from GFA. What do you think? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Can't be here. GFA started their own website forums for members >>>>>>>>>>> specifically so they wouldn't need to listen to this one. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Members need to get upset about this. Get organised. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - mark >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au >>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>>>>>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au >>>>>>>>> <mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >>>>>>>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>>>>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>>>>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au >>>>>>>> <mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >>>>>>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>>>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>>>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au <mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >>>>>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au <mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >>>>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au <mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >>>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au <mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au <mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au <mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring> > > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au <mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring > <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring> > > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
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