Peter.
A long time ago several old/new sailplanes eg. Mosquito’s, Cirrus etc.. suffered water leakage from their tanks into surrounding foam structure to such a degree lower skins separated from the foam. As a result a test was required to check the integrity of ballast tanks at each Form 2 inspection. I can only suppose the tanked sailplanes you’re referring to failed the test. Noel. From: Aus-soaring [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Peter Champness Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 6:40 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Cc: Gliding Australia Forum; Bruce Taylor Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: water bags and tanks With respect to ballast bags, can anyone tell me why so many older gliders (without ballast bags) can no longer carry water? What is the problem? On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 10:38 PM, Noel Roediger <[email protected]> wrote: The best ballast bags I ever used were made by Clipper Plastics – a Melbourne based company. They had patterns for all sailplanes requiring such and the bags were reasonably priced. Noel. From: Bruce Taylor [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 3:32 PM To: 'Justin Sinclair'; 'Gary Stevenson' Cc: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 'Anthony Smith'; 'Gliding Australia Forum' Subject: RE: [gfaforum] RE: water bags and tanks Hi Gary and all, In regard to sourcing ballast bags, there is a company at Currumbin in Qld called Turtle Pac who make all kinds of water and fuel bags for aviation and marine use. You will find them at http://www.turtlepac.com/ I have used them in the past, as have a number of other gliding people, and they appear to provide a good quality product and are very pleasant and easy to deal with. Speaking of “Super ships” and matters of weight and balance, it is my experience that as weights and wing-loadings inevitably increase, then the chance of getting the loading wrong enough to matter also increases. The JS1 is a beautiful glider to own and fly, but it is the first glider that I have been involved with that has a real potential to be loaded well outside of its C of G limitations. Particularly in 21m span, the large wing ballast load, two separate tail tanks, jet fuel load and of course various pilot weights require that you do actually sit down with the supplied loading spreadsheet and put all the correct numbers into the calculation. Wing-loadings close to 60kg/sq m are a real hoot to fly with, but need to be treated with much respect. On the upside, the EASA-specified certification flight testing is now incredibly rigorous, so you can be assured that if you do get the numbers wrong, or have a ballast-dump malfunction, the glider will be doing its best to keep you alive. Things have changed since gliders like the Cirrus were certified! Spinning the JS1C/21m with a fully asymmetric ballast load, with the C of G WAY behind the aft limit, makes for particularly exciting viewing! It’s on Youtube somewhere. Cheers, BT. From: Justin Sinclair [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 7:38 AM To: Gary Stevenson Cc: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.; Anthony Smith; Gliding Australia Forum Subject: Re: [gfaforum] RE: water bags and tanks My only comment having been involved as CFI of a club that has had an asymmetric balance accident would be that "if" you can pick that you have asymmetry make sure do a fast landing. I am not sure of the speed or flap setting but logic would dictate something above your normal fully ballasted/slow thermalling speed. The idea would be to lower the wing onto the ground before you lose aileron effectiveness, but do not do the traditional stall it on landing otherwise you get a big surprise as the heavy wing drops first. The issue with asymmetry should be structural not aerodynamic. Even if one wing has 200lts of water in it you average wing can easily develop enough angle of attack to pull 3G or 600lts/kg, so as long as you have speed/AoA you will be fine. My only other advice would be if you use tape to cover the vent holes instead of wing sticks make sure you do a proper ABCD walk around just before you jump in the seat and use any colour tape other than white. Justin Justin Sinclair 17 Queen St Scarborough Qld 0421061811 On 28 Aug 2017, at 12:18 am, Gary Stevenson <[email protected]> wrote: Hi Noel, Tend to agree with you here. Re “twisted” I am sure that this does not apply only to the bags. Think about some of the pilots you know! You say “Generally a sailplane will not display an imbalance until stalled. One wing doesn’t know it’s heavier than its partner until then.” A very interesting point, which I have had the misfortune to inadvertently explore a little bit, but – thank God – never seriously in the air. Without doubt the use of water ballast introduced a whole new dimension to gliding, as, just co-incidentally Mike B mentioned in a concurrent post. However it use is something that should never be treated lightly [groan]. A couple of hundred litres of ballast will turn your pussy cat into a tiger: In the glide; into a missile ..... almost. Take care that you are not lined up on one of your mates. You say “A number of prototype sailplanes have been lost while testing their ability to remain controllable at the stall with max. Imbalance” I have never had the chance to own/fly a current “super-ship”, but from the literature , they have (as a minimum), inboard tanks, outboard tanks, and fuselage tanks. It would seem to me that the situation could become somewhat fraught, if the slightest thing goes wrong with the dumping arrangement. Would any knowable person like to make comment here? Finally we come to the important practical question of “good ballast bags”. It would seem that these are becoming hard to source, due to potential liability issues. Who in Australia, or elsewhere, are making new replacement bags? Regards, Gary From: Aus-soaring [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Noel Roediger Sent: Sunday, 27 August 2017 10:18 PM To: 'Anthony Smith'; 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 'Gliding Australia Forum' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: American Soaring Symposia Thanks Anthony. The final question asked of Wil re assymetric water ballast merits further comment particularly for those who fly sailplanes with bags instead of tanks. I believe good ballast bags far outweigh the problems exhibited by rigid tanks which often leak into the surrounding structure. Having said that I don’t know of any “bagged” tank that is not extended and held in place by a rear cord. In reality bags should be held by two cords. One at its rear as is the norm but also one at its front to eliminate the possibility of its leading edge falling over the aft edge and becoming twisted. Regards Noel. From: Anthony Smith [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 6:32 PM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 'Gliding Australia Forum' Subject: [gfaforum] RE: [Aus-soaring] American Soaring Symposia Part of the Wil Schumann paper is here: http://www.betsybyars.com/guy/soaring_symposia/72-modif.html From: Aus-soaring [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders Sent: Sunday, 27 August 2017 6:22 PM To: Gliding Australia Forum <[email protected]>; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. <[email protected]> Subject: [Aus-soaring] American Soaring Symposia Any body got any idea where is can get any of these publications from the seventies?? Wil Schumann did a clean up of a libelle that i would like to read about again. Ron -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Gliding Australia Forum" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/a/glidingaustralia.org/group/gfaforum/. <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Image removed by sender. Virus-free. <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> www.avg.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Gliding Australia Forum" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. 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