I agree. The comment "overly conservative people" could translate into "those that take themselves too seriously". I have seen many times where new starters have been discouraged by this very thing. Keep up the good work JR and maintain your light hearted perspective. regards John Ashford <http://thewell.santos.com.au/teamlink/directory/moreinfo.asp?strEntID=8 36> Maintenance Supervisor, Dullingari / Cross Border Santos Ltd PO Box 1010 Bne 4001 Ph 08 8678 4751 Fax 08 8678 4740 ________________________________ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR Sent: Tuesday, 27 May 2008 22:01 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA,marketing and democracy in the GFA (was Re: PDA Programsandothermatters) Geoff, I was taking the piss, its what I do, but having said that, I do agree that there is some whorth while topics to be seen on here, and when it comes to marketing our sport, I'm right up there in the front line, but I will say that humour does play rather a large role in most things, its got to be seen as fun, and I endeavour to have fun with almost everything I can. but thats just my opinion. JR ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoff Kidd <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. <mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA,marketing and democracy in the GFA (was Re: PDA Programs andothermatters) No JR. THAT type of reply is probably one of the reasons. And I have to add that David Lawley's note and Robert's reply are (in my humble opinion) some of the most worthwhile basis for serious opinion & discussion that this group has seen in the last couple of years. Plus we have a Board Member telling it like it is. And you knock that? I for one hope that this discussion goes further because if it doesn't, the sport that we all love won't. ----- Original Message ----- From: JR <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. <mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA,marketing and democracy in the GFA (was Re: PDA Programs and othermatters) I often wonder if long windedness is one of the reasons, ? just asking regards JR ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Hart <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Steve Martin <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; DDSC Chat <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; John Ashford <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Lindsay Mitchell <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Leigh Evans <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Michael O'Brien <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Rob Izatt <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Peter Pledger <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Mike Truitt <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Ivor Harris <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Tony Cavanna <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Dan Byrnes <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; GQ Committee <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Brian Wade <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Dave Donald <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Peter Stephenson <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Grant Harper <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Darryl Hansen <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Ralph Henderson <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Tony Scarlett <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Ian Perkins <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Alwyn Reid <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Alan McMaster <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Al Sim <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Stuart Lutton <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Ron McLeay <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Caboolture Gliding Club <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Hank Kauffman <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Daryl Connell <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Ross Hall <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Keith Frewin <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:06 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] GFA, marketing and democracy in the GFA (was Re: PDA Programs and other matters) David Marketing and the future of Gliding; Regarding Adam Wooleys comment on marketing, It seems, regretably, we will never see gliding marketed as well as hang gliding until an entire generation of overly conservative people, who have controlled gliding clubs and peak bodies policies for the last 20 years leave the system. Unfortunately, this denies the reality of our situation: as a movement, we don't have a marketing problem we have a retention problem. Across all the regions, we are attracting about 1,000 new people into gliding every year - that's about 40% of the membership. Unfortunately, we also have about the same number or greater leaving the gliding movement every year. Until we understand in more detail why this is so, then spending money on marketing would be wasteful as we can't keep the people we do attract. I am hopeful that this year the central administration of the GFA will spend some money on trying to tease out what I am sure will be a range of reasons for the rate people are leaving the gliding movement. It is worthwhile however pointing out that even when we do know why people are leaving, the GFA Board and Executive can do very little to reverse things. Members interface first and foremost with their clubs and only they can change this interface. There are some things the central sporting body can address - and, for example, the change from instructing/coaching to integrated training is one of those. Another is modernising our safety stance - and the upcoming discussion at the Ops Panel looking at creating a modern, integrated safety management system that would align us with world's best practice in this area. But I reiterate: it is at the club - the interface between the membership and the sport - that the changes will need to have most effect. These changes probably do not need to be huge - but they do represent changes that have been discussed for some years, with very little effect at most clubs - at least as far as I can see. After all, whilst you can with some justification claim that the central administration of the sport as done little to arrest the decline, the same can be said of almost every club. The example you give of the (mis)treatment of an 18 year old pilot is a clear example of the sort of thing that needs to change at the club level. It is also something that you, as a member of that club can make happen (and the GFA Board and Executive can do nothing about). The finger clearly points in both directions. These same people have taken gliding fron 4,500 members 20 years ago to 2,500 now, says it all really. For example, why do glider pilots need to be anually checked twice as often as GA pilots? Gliding In Australia has been flying a straight course in heavy sink for 20 years. I for one have given up hope of seeing change-especially as the selection of the GFA descision makers is not done in a democratic all members vote for board fashion, in fact the system is stacked to ensure a popular vote of the entire membership cannot change the board or executive members. The HGFA seems to be able to manage proper democratic elections via a vote of all members, where candidates state their policies and ideas for the future before their elections so why cant we? It's not quite true to say that the board is not elected from the membership: the regional representatives are elected by their (regional) membership. Unfortunately, with a few exceptions, the regional organisations appear to be moribund. It is true, however, that the Executive does not face the membership in terms of election. This is because we, the membership have allowed this situation to arise and then permitted it to continue. I am certain that if the membership really wanted to change this situation, then the current power structure in the GFA would change. However, the vast majority of the membership just want to go flying and not get involved in the heat and venom that would be involved in forcing such a change. Those people who were at the 2005 Gliding Queensland AGM, attended by the then President and and Vice President, where this issue amongst other controversial (if not heretical) changes were canvassed would know just how much emotional energy is consumed in trying to force change against the will of the holders of power. It is also notable just how unsuccessful was that great expenditure of energy. I have now completed two terms as Gliding Queensland's regional Board representative. At every possible opportunity I have pushed for more open governance of the sport and on almost every occasion I have failed in that goal. I have just been re-elected as GQ's regional representative and I will continue to push in that direction - but I expect the pace of change to remain glacial. Unless there is real pressure from the membership for change to occur in the governance of our sport, then there will be no change. The regional representatives on the Board each with two votes, can outvote those appointed to the Board through less democratic routes. So there is a route through which change can occur - another route is through special motions at the AGM or through an extraordinary general meeting. Both of these routes however require the membership to get itself organised. On the one hand to, give clear voting instructions to their representative and the other to coordinate across the movement sufficient people and proxies at an AGM or special meeting to change the Articles of Association. It is really easy to point the finger at the people who currently govern our sport. It is worth noting however that whilst I disagree with much of the way things are done, it is clear to me that the people involved believe they are doing the right things in the right way. That this hase been going on for some 20 years may be damning to those people in the administration of the sport, but it is equally damning of the membership that permits the situation to continue for 20 years. Want change? Then make it happen, because unless you do, it won't. -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring <html> <body> <font face="arial" color=#808080 size="-2"><img alt="Santos Logo" src="http://www.santos.com/library/logo.gif";> <br>Santos Ltd A.B.N. 80 007 550 923<br> Disclaimer: The information contained in this email is intended only for the use of the person(s) to whom it is addressed and may be confidential or contain privileged information. 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