Tim,
I didn't ask. It was a competition briefing and
the CD noted that the task passed through the
allowed cloud flying area and you could cloud fly there.
This was at Waharoa (North island). They do have
complete radar coverage and the gliders all have transponders.
Even in the UK they don't just all climb up in
the cloud in a gaggle. The BGA has some rules for
this including radio calls, a cloud flying
frequency and some rules so that two gliders
don't occupy the same cloud at anything like the same altitude.
If cloud flying is allowed in contests and you
are serious as a competitor and believe it may be
an advantage, I guess you'd equip the glider and acquire the skill.
How many interesting skills do we want to lose or
eliminate entirely? Navigation no longer has an
advantage in being able to do it without GPS and
being able to position the glider for turnpoint photos is gone.
Of course in legal terms, glider pilots in
Australia all "cloud fly" when they fly closer
than 1000 feet to cloudbase(used to be 500 feet
in the old days until the ATC mob snuck this
through). Likewise 1.5Km horizontally. Interesting that.
Mike
At 05:25 PM 15/06/2011, you wrote:
Mike,
At first glance, the concept of allowing cloud
flying in competitions has problems relating to
both fairness and safety, and I would be
interested to know how the Kiwis handle it.
The problem is that the level of competence in
cloud flying among competitors will vary greatly
(from none to excellent) and CD's will not
easily be able to tell who is competent and
current, and who is not. Then there will be
days when having the skill will impart a huge
advantage, tempting those with lesser or no
skills to give it a go. Foreign pilots from
countries like Australia would presumably be
excluded from such competitions on safety
grounds, and if not would certainly be at such a
disadvantage that it would not be worth entering anyway.
Do you have any insights into how they deal with
it? The idea of a 20-glider gaggle is scary
enough in clear air for most people - the idea
that this gaggle could legally all disappear
into the same cloud is genuinely thought-provoking :)
Cheers
Tim
tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare
On 15/06/2011 11:40, Mike Borgelt wrote:
Cloud flying is permitted in NZ in designated
cloud flying areas even in contests IIRC from a couple of years ago.
Flying on instruments is a matter of training and practice.
We nowadays have wonderful PC based flight
simulators (Condor?) for the practice.
The old arguments about "we don't know where we
are" no longer hold as we have GPS with moving maps.
Attitude indicators aren't all that expensive
and the necessary sensors can be built into
soaring instruments. These can be built so they
don't have the problems that old AH instruments
had in gliders(indicated bank decreases with time).
With a little awareness(pitot icing), proper
equipment, training and procedures and some PC
based recurrent practice there doesn't seem to
be any reason not fly in cloud now and again in
gliders. Might be fun to fly out into the
sunshine and smooth air from the side of a tall cumulus.
You'd want to see what happens in your glider
if you trim aft and open the brakes and then
take hands and feet off the controls. Some
gliders are claimed to have a "benign spiral mode".
Mike
At 11:05 AM 15/06/2011, you wrote:
Hi all,
I suspect that two factors were significant in
the early days of the BGA which were not so
relevant in Australia. First, the number of
days with cumulus cloud and relatively low
cloudbases, and secondly a number of ex-air
force pilots with IFR skills being involved in
the formation of the gliding movement.
The countries that permitted (and still
permit) cloud flying seem to be limited to
northern Europe and so it is likely that
weather conditions play a big part in swinging the decision.
Cloud flying was banned in world competition
after the 1972 World Comps (a collision and
fatality in cloud) and as far as I know this
ban is universal in competitions now, even in
countries that allow cloud flying in other circumstances.
I think that during the 1970's several gliders
were built with VNE limiting brakes (Club
Libelle, Hornet, Mosquito, Cobra, Pik20,
Nimbus 2C) but earlier designs such as
Libelle, Cirrus, Kestrel were not (though some
had tail chutes) and after the 1980's I think
very few if any were speed limited.
I don't have blind flying instruments in my
glider and would not use them, even if I
did. It's hard enough to thermal when I can see.
Cheers
Tim
tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare
On 14/06/2011 11:21,
<mailto:gstev...@bigpond.com>gstev...@bigpond.com wrote:
Hi All,
I would very much like to know the
process/history on how 'cloud flying" came to
be banned for gliders (in Australia), and
when. I am somewhat surprised that as an ex
"British Colony" - read we used to do what
the Brits did even long after Federation -
and cloud flying in gliders is, and has been
for many years, permitted in the UK why we in
Australia went down a different path.
How many pilots on this list have Bohli and
similar compasses fitted to their glider and
feel they are competent to use them as a "blind flying" aid?
What are the experiences of members, who when
flying wave, had the Fohn Gap close under
them. There must be many a tale to be told here?
Regards,
Gary
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