Or you can get a better system that does not need you to cycle thru them at all!!! Fly thru any one and you start
Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 14, 2014, at 13:55, [email protected] wrote: > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. FW: FYI (Future Aviation) > 2. Re: The nationals: a proposal (rolf a. buelter) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 07:14:21 +1030 > From: "Future Aviation" <[email protected]> > Subject: [Aus-soaring] FW: FYI > To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Good morning all! > > If you are interested there is a nice video of the new > ASH 30 Mi Open Class 2-seater on this website. > > http://www.australian-soaring-corowa.com/latest.php > > Please enjoy! > > Bernard > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 07:55:21 +1100 > From: "rolf a. buelter" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal > To: aus soaring <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Jarek, > > get with the times and use a program which lets you enter any number of start > points and then one tap on the screen to cycle through them. I ditched the > Garmin years ago and am still not for start lines. > > Rgds - Rolf > > To: [email protected] > From: [email protected] > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 14:21:15 +1100 > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal > > Hi, > >> From my observations, the most vocal opponents of using start line are the >> pilots who still use instruments that do not allow visualisation of the >> start line (i.e. Garmins, Cambridge 20 etc.) but only show the distance to >> the centre point of the line. > > Also, consider what has to happens if the pilot changes her / his decision > with regard to the one of the allocated points before the start. How many > clicks / touches within the navigation program are required to switch from > one point to another and where are the pilot eyes while she / he performing > this operation... certainly not outside maintaining good lookout. > > With the WinPilot, it is just one click between the two pre-nominated start > points, but if I want to change to the third one, I need to do no less than 5 > clicks and navigate through 3 different screens, you do not get such problems > with the start line. > > Regards > > Jarek > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <[email protected]> > To:"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <[email protected]> > Cc: > Sent:Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:29:27 +1100 > Subject:Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal > > > > > Hi All, > > > > Some interesting comments from Matthew. > > > > > > > > His comment in the first paragraph re Tocumwal, is actually a > very good reason supporting the use of allocated start points. > With 2/3rds of the points out, what we have is 1/3 usable. EVERY pilot still > has one start point available in the soarable part of the start area. This is > adequate. > Contrast this to the hypothetical situation where the one and only (per > class) start > line has been set up in the unsoarable part of the sky. > > > > > > > > In the nature of the beast, it is somewhat unlikely that > increasing the length of a start line from 10k to 20 k is going to improve > safety very much, if at all. > > > > > > > > Multiple class pre-start gaggling can be minimized with well set > tasks, in which it is essential (if the task is to be completed), for each > class to get going soon after the opening of their gate. The trend to > under-set > tasks at Australian competitions continues. > > > > > > > > Comments in the last two paragraphs are noted. > > > > > > > > Here is an idea that to my knowledge has NOT been thrown into > the ring to date. The idea is to use allocated multiple start lines, with > a possible length of say 2-5k. I have not really thought about all the > possible > ramifications, and whether or not it would actually achieve anything positive, > but perhaps it is at least worth considering. > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Matthew > Scutter > Sent: Friday, 14 February 2014 12:06 AM > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal > > > > > > > > > > A few points: > > Despite popular belief, team flying is disallowed or doesn't happen in most > European national competitions. > > I've heard of multiple start points being tried in some places (WGC2010?) but > it hasn't stuck. It seems it only takes one day where pilots on one set of > start points are disadvantaged and everyone is up in arms and wants start > lines > back - like after the nationals at Tocumwal with essentially unsoarable > weather > covering 2/3rds of the start points. > > > > > I'm not convinced that multiple start points are safer than start lines - > with multiple start points I found myself thermalling with vastly different > span/wing loading gliders prestart, whereaa with distinctly separate start > lines such as those set at Kingaroy and Waikerie it'd be with comparable > gliders with similar circling speeds and diameters - if at all, on a 10km > start > line there were usually multiple potentially optimal locations. If we want to > reduce gaggling we could even increase the line length - some european comps > fly with 20k. > > > > > I agree that gaggles are a high risk sitdayson but I remain unconvinced that > the formation is any less frequent with start points than start lines - I > remember the balls of glass forming on the blue days just as readily at > Benalla > (last nationals with multiple points) as Waikerie/Kingaroy. There'd be an > enormous prestart gaggle, everyone would leave on diverging headings for their > start points then reconvene in the first thermal on track. It was essentially > the same as we have now but with a randomly selected group of pilots being > forced to start a bit lower than everyone else each day. I welcome comments > from those who've flown many more competitions than I with both start systems. > > > > > The reality of the situation is that in weak and inconsistent conditions, > it's much slower/riskier to fly alone than with a gaggle and unless you find a > way to change the incentives that drive this, on the low, weak, blue days > there > will be gaggling. All of the ways that I can think of (everybody has a > different task, everybody has a different start time) have a substantial > impact > on fairness such that the day would better be cancelled. > > > > > > > On 13 Feb 2014 22:11, "Gary Stevenson" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi > All, > > > > Harry > has given us some good information here, which should be of special interest > to > newer competition pilots. > > > > > > > > I am > somewhat at loss as to why Harry made comment in his last > paragraph on team flying. Team flying is OUT in Australian National > Competitions, > and Ross McLean in a very recent post on this site explained exactly why. > > > > > > > > Harry > gave a brief comment on Start Line (as currently used), as opposed to Start > Circle, and as I see it, voted for the start circle. Perhaps Harry might like > add some extra comment here? > > > > > > > > From > my now EXTENSIVE experience of using a start line, I can say that the reality > is that it would seem that in a majority of circumstances the > actual start method does not really matter that much. However note my use of > the words ?SEEM? & ?MAJORITY?. As Harry pointed > out, there are exceptions, and there is not the slightest doubt, that safety > is > compromised, in these exceptions. > > > > > > > > The > Europeans love start lines ( despite all its potential hazards), because > European pilots mostly team fly, and using a start line makes the start easier > for a team. > > > > > > > > It is > my understanding that Australia pioneered the use of allocated Start Circles. > In Harry?s paragraph 6, he talks about Start Point > Circle layout geometry. The competition guide lines unambiguously > set all this out: Very safe, and very fair. {I use ?fair? as some > pilots seem to think (argue), that having a choice of ONLY three start points > is very inhibiting, and very unfair.] My comment ? GET REAL! > > > > > > > > Basically > THERE ARE MINIMAL HAZZARDS associated with start circles. If you don?t > quite ?get it? yet, I STRONGLY advocate that in Australia we > exclusively use start circles. They tend to inhibit a team flying > approach, and they tend to inhabit a start gaggle, which is of course why the > Europeans have not adopted the idea. > > > > > > > > Gary > Stevenson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Harry > Sent: Thursday, 13 February 2014 3:39 PM > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These notes may be of interest, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having a background of flying > competitions for over 20years, being coordinator of the National Pilots Safety > Committee and being involved in a midair in which I was hit from behind by a > following glider and only just opening my parachute in time, maybe these > comments may have some value. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the period 1988 to 1999, > national multiclass competitions mid air collisions resulted in 2 fatal > mid airs, several pilots just opening their parachutes just in time, 5 gliders > destroyed, as well as other mid airs where the damage did not result in loss > of > control. A number of pilots gave up flying competitions. One in ten of > the pilots who flew National multiclass competitions during that period was > involved in a mid air collision. The number of competitors during that period > substantially reduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By way of comparison the very > popular national club class competitions which used an optional turn > point tasking system, did not, to my memory, have a single mid air > accident. The tasking system used resulted in very little gaggling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The National Pilots Safety Committee > was formed to research these accidents and to suggest ways of preventing them. > Changes made, Largely as a result of the Committees efforts included. > Assigned start points to reduce gaggles, mandatory frequencies, mandatory > safety briefings including providing extensive notes to pilots and Assigned > Area Tasks particularly for use on difficult days. Suggestions for task > setters included avoiding out and return situations, Having an included angle > of no less than 30 degrees between legs and setting tasks which avoided all > classes coming home together at about the same time over a long leg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some care is needed when applying > these recommendations. As an example, assigned start points, usually in three > groups of three, should be within about 40 degrees of right angles to the most > common first legs. This ensures pilots go straight on track and not cruise > through other start points after starting themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surely it is not a coincidence that > since these changes were introduced mid air accidents have virtually ceased > and > the number of pilots flying competitions has increased? We now have Flarms > which are a benefit but cannot by itself explain the improvement. The major > circumstance where midair collisions occur is in or when a glider is > joining a thermal. Statistically you can build a pyramid starting with the > number of times a glider joins another or a group thermalling. The next line > is > when a less than optimum but not immediately dangerous situation occurs, then > a > highly dangerous situation and at the top of the pyramid an actual midair. By > training we can reduce the progression but there is always a correlation. The > more times gliders join a turning glider, the more accidents at the top > of the pyramid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Accidents when gliders are following > the same track or cross each others path as can occur in an AAT are > extremely rare and a circumstance where Flarms are particularly effective. > > > > > > > > For these reasons it is very > concerning that some pilots are advocating and consideration is being given to > returning to conditions which obtained during the years when we had an > epidemic > of accidents. Start lines result in pilots starting together and gaggling is > far worse, particularly on blue days, just as occurred years ago with > unallocated start points I understand that some pilots like to fly as a > team or a pair. Not sure that the silent majority are happy when our best > pilots, > perhaps hoping or training for international team selection , fly as a pair > The advantages of pair or team flying are such that when the best pilots do > it, > not much chance for the rest. It may well be GFA policy to encourage pair > flying by using start lines but I hope they are aware of the potential risks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having safe competitions must be our > first priority. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harry Medlicott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: rolf > a. buelter > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, February > 02, 2014 2:45 PM > > > > > > > > To: aus soaring > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] > The nationals: a proposal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As comp pilot permission of team > flying will be a disincentive. Would not prevent me to come but together with > other factors make it less likely. > > > > As GFA member I would not welcome to subsidise towing cost for comp pilots, > including myself. > > > > Rgds - Rolf > > > > > > > >> From: [email protected] > >> Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2014 10:43:35 +1000 > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal > > >> G'day All, > > >> What do you think of the below? > > >> Keen to hear from those who aren't going for team selection, would you > still turn up to the team selection years (or to the nationals that allowed > pair flying every other year)? > > >> Also from non-comp pilots, how would you feel about the GFA spending money > on the tug ferry fees? > > >> & from people who are generally in the organisation of comps, would > this be better or worse for you or your club? > > >> What are other advantages & disadvantages that I've forgotten about? > Or points I've made, but over looked or got incorrect? > > >> Other? > > > >> Cheers, > >> WPP > > > > >> As you're all aware, gliding in Australia is oversubscribed with > competitions, as well as the team selection process being far to onerous. I > have a simple solution to all this. > > >> At the recent Waikerie Club & Sports Class Nationals, it was seen that > it's easily possible & safe to task wet & dry gliders together - using > start lines. > > >> I propose that we hold one nationals every biannual year, which will house > all classes - except 20m class. Run using the GFA national rules as it is now. > > >> I propose we combine STD & 15m class together & run a '15m > performance' class, then award the highest placed STD & Racing class > glider/pilot as the national champion - for history sake. Why run it as a > combined class? It's not as much fun flying against 7 other competitors, when > you could be challenging yourself against 30 plus others! > > >> The same could be said for 18m & Open Class, combine them (as they > often are) as an 'Open' Class. The only difference here, the 18m > gliders/pilots > would have to declare what class they were going for the national champion > title in. > > >> Alternatively, have the 18m & Open Class separate - & only combine > them should the Open entries be not enough to make its own class outright. > Again though, is competing against 7 other gliders that much fun? > > >> Club would be run as it is now. Simple. > > >> How many competitors would this attract at a site? Probably 80-90 odd > gliders. That's crazy I hear you say. Not really, in years gone past they used > to get those numbers (& more!) & managed. > > >> Gliding is shrinking The only clubs that are running nationals now are > big clubs, & are all at sites where they can handle such numbers. So the > site isn't the issue. > > >> The tugs are an issue. Or are they? Simple solution. If GFA want to see > their sport & population grow, they'll put their money where their mouth > is! Pay at least 2/3's of the tug ferry costs for the competitors. Done. It'd > be no different to what it is now in SA where we have to pay large tug levies. > > >> This idea/proposal. Run it every biannual year, with every other year > running as a team selection competition, let's call it the 'open' comp for > now. > This 'Open' comp would be run exactly as the nationals is, except 'pair' > flying > would be allowed. > > >> Note! I didn't say team flying, team flying to me could result with > multiple gliders flying around in a 6 ship gaggle every day to improve their > chances of winning. So only pairs would be allowed, teams would be extremely > frowned upon. > > >> Note! If & when a solo pilot wins the 'Open' comp - they'd still be > eligible to make the team. Though I'll leave the team selection guidelines to > the ITC in this proposal. > > >> Would the people still turn up to this 'Open' comp if they're not > interested in team selection? I think so. As it's still an organised 2wk > gliding event to go flying with their mates. Maybe more would turn up than > normal, as they'd be able to fly alongside their 'pair' flying mate - & not > get shot down as they would now! > > >> Alternatively. Run a nationals every year, however only every other year > will be used for selection - & this particular year, 'pair' flying would be > allowed. Easy. > > >> Why leave 20m class out? We want this class to grow. It wouldn't grow as > fast as it could if it were included at the nats/open comp. Just run it at a > State champs every year, with only the team selection year as the one that > counts. > > > >> Advantages of having only one big 2wk competition a year... > >> * It's only 2wks out of your precious 4wks a year annual leave. > >> * Only one lot of organisation people get put out every year. Clubs & > the organisation less likely to get burnt out. > >> * State comps, regattas & coaching events will grow: as people will > have an extra 2wks a year to spend how ever they choose. > >> * If you're only after team selection, then in the 'off' years, the pilot > could go to the European Gliding Championships, or other European nationals to > get vital experience in helping AUS become a world leader in gliding. > >> * More people in towns. Greater support from councils. Greater chance of > major sponsorship (GFA should pay for a dedicated sponsorship & advertiser > of the event - leaving this up to clubs is never going to work, as it hasn't > up > to now. Ultimately we don't know what we're doing, & we just don't have the > man power or time to do it now). Greater exposure for gliding in general. > >> * Potentially attract more international competitors due to the amount of > numbers & likely better competition in each class. Which as a result will > make our pilots better We could advertise it like the 'World Cup' that the > paragliders have Advertisers & media can spin up & promote it! > >> * God forbid, pilots could spend their other 2wks a year having a regular > holiday with their family or friends!! > > > >> Disadvantages... > >> * It's a risk to try it, due unknown amount of competitors that would turn > up. I think, what we're doing now isn't working (for AUS international > results), why not try something new! WA State comps saw great success with > numbers growing once they combined into one big class (Don Woodward said he > 'raced' one other competitor in 15m class one year before they changed the > format, that's definitely no fun!). > >> * Tugs. This can be fixed if GFA put their hand into their pockets to help > their/our sport grow. > > > >> Regards, > >> Adam Woolley > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Aus-soaring mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > > > > > > Email sent using Optus Webmail > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20140215/969ce110/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 125, Issue 48 > ******************************************** _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
