re: water / beach landing There would seldom be the perfect beach landing scenario, wind hardly ever blows ALONG a beach. You would typically be looking at a cross-wind landing and considering what a muck up the day has turned out to be, landing cross-wind onto an unknown surface may be your last bad decision. Stick it in the drink slowly, directly into the wind, close to shore as you dare. Stick it in wheel down, tail first in a low speed mush stall. The tail will not suck into the drink, basic physics prevents it. The AC will float plenty long enough for you to exit and swim if you have to, likely it may even float for a very long time.
Manuals should be upgraded to include "swim away" to the "walk away" -from any landing is a good one On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 12:30 PM, < [email protected]> wrote: > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Water Landing (dennis hipperson) > 2. Re: Water Landing (dennis hipperson) > 3. Re: Water Landing (Gary Stevenson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 21:16:15 +1000 > From: dennis hipperson <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Water Landing > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > > Except in this case no sucking down was evident, nor was any bouncing > into the air and > plunging nose first as someone mentioned. > > Dennis > > On 29/08/14 2:52 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: > > At 02:39 PM 29/08/2014, you wrote: > >> Surely there are so many variables (fuselage shape, surface of water, > >> C of G position, etc) that almost every case would be different.? > >> > >> I'm sure there would be examples of gear up & gear down examples > >> succeeding and failing. > >> > >> Nick. > >> > > > > It is my understanding that the point of putting the gear down is to > > act as a spoiler. See here: > > > > http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/spins.html#sec-teaspoon-effect > > <http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/spins.html#sec-teaspoon-effect> > > > > Think of the bottom of the fuselage as the convex side of the teaspoon > > in the demo and as it hits the water it gets sucked down. > > There is a reason that hydroplanes, flying boats and seaplane floats > > have a step. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > *Borgelt Instruments***- /design & manufacture of quality soaring > > instrumentation since 1978 > > /www.borgeltinstruments.com > > <http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/>tel: 07 4635 5784overseas: > > int+61-7-4635 5784 > > mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 > > P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > [email protected] > > To check or change subscription details, visit: > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20140830/5ee85fb1/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 21:25:34 +1000 > From: dennis hipperson <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Water Landing > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > > After looking and stopping the clip several times I think what could > look like a wheel > down is the shadow of the AC on the water, the sun is on the stbd side > of the plane. > > Dennis > > > On 30/08/14 8:49 PM, Catherine Conway wrote: > > I'm not convinced the wheel was up looking at that video. > > > > I think it might actually have had the wheel down. > > > > Cath > > > > On 30 Aug 2014, at 8:07 pm, dennis hipperson > > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > >> Except in this case no sucking down was evident, nor was any bouncing > >> into the air and > >> plunging nose first as someone mentioned. > >> > >> Dennis > >> > >> On 29/08/14 2:52 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: > >>> At 02:39 PM 29/08/2014, you wrote: > >>>> Surely there are so many variables (fuselage shape, surface of > >>>> water, C of G position, etc) that almost every case would be > >>>> different.? > >>>> > >>>> I'm sure there would be examples of gear up & gear down examples > >>>> succeeding and failing. > >>>> > >>>> Nick. > >>>> > >>> > >>> It is my understanding that the point of putting the gear down is to > >>> act as a spoiler. See here: > >>> > >>> http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/spins.html#sec-teaspoon-effect > >>> <http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/spins.html#sec-teaspoon-effect> > >>> > >>> Think of the bottom of the fuselage as the convex side of the > >>> teaspoon in the demo and as it hits the water it gets sucked down. > >>> There is a reason that hydroplanes, flying boats and seaplane floats > >>> have a step. > >>> > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> *Borgelt Instruments***- /design & manufacture of quality soaring > >>> instrumentation since 1978 > >>> /www.borgeltinstruments.com > >>> <http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/>tel: 07 4635 5784overseas: > >>> int+61-7-4635 5784 > >>> mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 > >>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Aus-soaring mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]> > >> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > [email protected] > > To check or change subscription details, visit: > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20140830/b1f8d066/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 23:29:40 +1000 > From: "Gary Stevenson" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Water Landing > To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <002201cfc456$73b5a770$5b20f650$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hmmm! > You touch on an interesting point here when you say "....landed wheel down > trying to put them up the beach." > > It seems quite obvious to me that just like paddock landings, no two water > outlandings are exactly the same; every water landing has its own > peculiarities, and hazards. > > Whilst it might seem obvious, let me definitively state here, that in the > first instance, a water landing should be avoided at all costs! > > Here are a few scenarios to consider, and no doubt there are many more: > Landing in open waters - the sea, or a very large lake - Here wind and > wave > action will be present, How are you going to deal with this? As far as I > can determine, nobody has seriously looked at this scenario. YouTube has > some fascinating footage of a T21? landing in relatively smooth seas. Quite > obviously, this ship has a fixed wheel, so the gear-up, gear-down option > does not apply. Also of interest here is the actual landing speed of the > glider. I am prepared to take bets, but it is very obvious that this glider > "lands" at a speed of about half the landing speed of a modern composite > fibre glass glider. Great landing. A question of interest is "What happened > next?"[Quite obviously it did not instantly sink.] > Landing close to an ocean-facing ridge/cliff. There may or may not be a > landing option. In the latter case this is generally defined as a crash if > things go pear-shaped! > Landing in a relatively small lake, without much wave action ie relatively > smooth surface. > Landing in a river/canal: Ditto the above. > > The last two scenarios seem to be the focus of the current thread, but as I > have pointed out above, THERE IS MUCH MORE TO CONSIDER! > > Let me make a few comments, starting with the first line quote above. If > there is a beach, why not land on it - you do not have to "head" towards > it. > Cath Conway has summarised the situation, regarding what the manufactures' > recommend: Yes, it is very simple - land wheel down. Mike Borgelt has > pointed you towards some theory to consider as to just why you should do > this. In the lake scenario (without beaches), ALWAYS land parallel to the > shore, with say about 2 m of water under your keel - if you can judge this. > This will max out your chances if your glider decides to become a > submarine. > > In your post there is another point, that I think needs further discussion > - > video evidence shows that the glider does not necessarily "RAPIDLY" sink as > you stated. It seems to me that in the instance presented, the glider is > happily floating along and is very far from sinking. Get your horse before > the cart. When the electrics/electronics are submersed, kiss them goodbye. > Here is another thought: After running the video of the water landing in > question a few times, it is very apparent that the video quality is of such > poor quality, that it is impossible to determine if the wheel is up or > down. > Most posts seem to assume the wheel is up. In my opinion, highly unlikely > if > we believe the theory ... which I do. > > Just why pilots get into the situation where they might experience one of > these scenarios is I think endlessly fascinating, but any discussion on > this > is I think the possible start of a whole new (and possibly most > interesting), thread. Who want to start it? > > Gary > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of DMcD > Sent: Saturday, 30 August 2014 3:53 PM > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Water Landing > > Sent to me in 2008: > > Tests were carried out on a lake in Germany by Walter Schneider and > Wolf Lemke of LS fame. They ditched an LS1 prior to the World > Championships in Finland because they were worried about the lack of > land out options and the proliferation of lakes. > > They assumed that landing wheel up would be the preferred option, but > discovered that the glider 'bounced' off the surface and dropped a > wing as the fuselage entered the water because of it's shape. They > tried it again with the wheel down, deliberately put the tail down > first and discovered that the wheel acted as a gentle brake and > controlled the whole process much better. I've seen the photographs, > so they may be available on some German web site somewhere. > > During the Worlds in Borlenge Sweden, a couple of gliders were put > into lakes and all came out okay. I'm pretty certain they landed wheel > down trying to put them up the beach. The major issue with such > landings is that the glider sinks VERY quickly (regardless of wheel > position) and the electrics can cause problems as you'd expect. It's > certainly not recommended! > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4745 / Virus Database: 4015/8125 - Release Date: 08/29/14 > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 131, Issue 73 > ******************************************** >
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