Hi Michael,
Not sure of your winch status. The Brits after an extensive investigation
introduced “Safe Winch Launch”. Its principles reduced the winching accident
rate to 25% of what it was and has virtually eliminated fatalities. Worth
checking out their web site if interested. It uses 1.5 VS as the winch
launch minimum. They have no record of an airworthy glider being damaged by
overspeeding but many accidents and fatalities by being too slow. I tried to
get the GFA to adopt the principles in Safe Winch Launch. Initially they
accepted 1.5 VS as the minimum but reduced it to 1.3 VS after some clubs
complained that 1.5 VS left too small a margin between it and the max.
winch launch speed allowed for some older gliders.
I could go on with other instances.....
Harry
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Derry
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2014 11:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Spin Training
Hi All
Why is there such a paranoa about maintaining safe airspeed (which is
accepted to be 1.5 times Vs plus 1/2 windspeed) near the ground for
general flying if below 1,000 feet however:
winch launching pilots only have to maintain 1.3 Vs while they have a
gigantic airbrake deployed (ie their wing at 30 degrees or more).
Doesn't make a lot of sense.
Michael Derry
______________________________________________________________
Hi All,
I wrote the attached article and it received a few comments, both on and off
the web.
I should have summarised as follows.
1. If you enter a spin a modern glider below 1,000 ft. AGL you will almost
certainly die. No amount of prior training will make much difference.
2.Your first defence is to maintain safe speed near the ground. Your early
training should be such that you feel very uncomfortable if below this
criteria.
3. To maintain this speed you must monitor the ASI. Ground features mean
relying on the horizon attitude is not accurate, particularly with modern
slippery gliders. The ASI should be checked regularly and the closer to the
ground and more adverse the conditions the more frequently the check. On
final
under turbulent conditions a quick check no more than every 5 seconds is
needed
to ensure safe speed is maintained.
4. Learning and practicing incipient recovery. If things go wrong incipient
recovery means living to a ripe old age more certain, whether in a thermal
or
close to the ground.
5. Spin training helps in spins at altitude. Enter a spin below about 1,000
ft
AGL in a modern glider and you will most likely be dead in about 5 seconds.
Harry Medlicott
Hi All,
Sorry to be controversial but I believe most of our spin training is
marginal
in saving lives in the real world. Of far greater significance are design
factors reducing the propensity of gliders to spin. Spin related accidents
in
Europe have substantially reduced over time. No changes in spin training but
modern gliders are far more forgiving.
My first club had winch launching only and every year a tug was brought in
and
towed gliders to 3,000 ft for spin training. After briefing, students were
quite comfortable going through the standard recovery procedures.
My second club was winch launching only. Often there were periods when we
had
students due for spin training but weather conditions were such that
thermals
were not able to give us much by way of height. I experimented with a Blanik
by
a spin of the top of a winch launch which after one turn allowed recovery by
1,000 ft. before using the procedure with a student. OK in a Blanik but
certainly not in some other types
Despite very careful briefing a few minutes before the results were entirely
different to those when entering a spin at 3,000 ft. Upon seeing the ground
below them the student would immediately pull the control column right back
and
sometimes also move the control column away from the descending wing. It was
an
involuntary reaction but the one we would use to keep the glider in a spin.
So far as I am aware most spin accidents occur close to the ground, below
about
1,000 ft unless one is flying a particularly nasty glider such as an IS28,
which can take over 1,000 ft for the whole process. If what I am saying is
correct, then what are the chances of a pilot using the correct recovery
processes in a low level spin, perhaps a considerable time after undergoing
spin training or refreshing? Not very high. When asked to give a nervous
pilot
spin training I would say “We are going to undertake spin avoidance
training”
whereupon they would relax. After release at say 3,000 ft I would establish
safe speed near the ground and invite them to mishandle the glider with
rudder
and aileron and try and induce a spin. The message was that if you establish
and maintain safe speed near the ground, a spin is improbable. After that,
of
course, we undertook standard spin training.
Instructors right from a students very first flight should emphasise that
they
have established and maintained safe speed near the ground when they are at
a
height at which they would not like to attempt a spin recovery. Just as
importantly, that their lookout procedures are excellent. My message to a
student or visitor in an introductory flight was that I could not see where
we
going from the back seat and that their good lookout was needed to keep us
safe,
Harry Medlicott
From: Peter (PCS3)
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 10:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Spinning Re: IS-28B CQC's last flying day:
On 24/12/2014 8:41 PM, Colin Collum wrote:
G’day All,
One of the ironies of gliding seems to be that modern sleek gliders are
not
only faster in virtually every sense, they are also safer in that many of
them
are much less likely to spin, but unfortunately our novice pilot can’t be
guaranteed to always fly an aircraft that won’t spin.
I was instructing a girl in the front seat of a Twin Astir and said to her:
"Twin Astirs just mush instead of spinning" To my surprise, she managed to
spin it easily (because of her light weight) and it required full opposite
rudder to stop it as well as easing the stick forward and a very steep dive
enough for a loop.
I was in a Ventus 2b on a Xcountry having lunch in a thermal. I reached
behind
me to grab the water tube; the bottle was strapped on parcel shelf above and
behind me and the tube had slipped down beside me out of reach and I was
going
to find it from the bottle. When I looked round, the paddocks were in my
direct
field of vision rotating. I absolutely had no idea I was in a spin. Full
opposite rudder took a loooong time to stop the rotation and the height lost
was significant but fortunately did not end in an outlanding.
I recite this to all my students when instructing on spins.
PeterS
So we need to teach them in aircraft that can be spun safely, but we also
need to keep them keen and I must say that when I was learning 10 years ago,
even then the IS28s gave the impression of being way too out-of-date in
their
performance and appearance. After going solo I graduated to the giddy
heights
of a Junior—the novelty wore off that pretty quickly when from 8,500’ AGL I
couldn’t make it 40km home at best LD into a light breeze without another
thermal!
It’s no use saying I learned in one of those, and if it was good enough
for
me then it is good enough for the current generation of learners. We need to
keep them interested, a little excited, able to progress quickly enough for
it
to be satisfying and also very safe.
I don’t claim to know the answers, but I doubt if it is IS28s, K13s, K6s
and
Juniors. K21s? Probably, but I don’t know what to recommend for a first
single-seater.
Merry Xmas,
Colin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Aus-soaring mailing list
[email protected]
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Aus-soaring mailing list
[email protected]
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
_______________________________________________
Aus-soaring mailing list
[email protected]
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Previous message
View by thread
View by date
Next message
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Grant Davies
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Christopher
McDonnell
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Derek Ruddock
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Mark Newton
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Darin McLean
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Leigh Bunting
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Colin Collum
[Aus-soaring] Spinning Re: IS-28B CQC's la... Peter (PCS3)
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spinning Re: IS-28B CQC'... Harry
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spinning Re: IS-28B CQC's... Daryl Mackay
[Aus-soaring] spin training Harry
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Grant Davies
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Leigh Bunting
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Mark Newton
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... James Dutschke
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Leigh Bunting
[Aus-soaring] German Soaring Picture Calendars ... Mike Cleaver
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying day: Mike Cleaver
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com
_______________________________________________
Aus-soaring mailing list
[email protected]
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
_______________________________________________
Aus-soaring mailing list
[email protected]
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
