So far it's a hit by a "spud gun". You don't even wanna know that the shot gun impact would look like.. ;-)
I am not worried about other gliders - they will be flarm equipped. I do worry about GA traffic. Because any "near-miss" will compromise our freedom of (gliding) ability. PowerFlarm will tell me: there is a transponder signal in a "near enough is good enough" manner (no punt intended). OK, taken from the powerflarm manual: *Mode C signals only carry altitude information, but no identification. To avoid that an the aircraft’s own Mode C transponder is constantly displayed as a very close target, PowerFLARM identifies the strongest Mode C signal and suppresses it.* (no surprise here - that's why mode-s was implemented) *ADS-B alertsADS-B OUT broadcasts have originally been designed for ground- based surveillance and collision avoidance by Air Traffic Control. The use of ADS-B for airborne collision alerts is often limited by factors such as: Absence of horizontal and/or vertical speed data Absence of GPS altitude data Erroneous transmission of position and/or velocity data Time lag in position data* ...bla bla bla... and then this: *However, ADS-B does not provide sufficiently precise data to warn about glider traffic with its frequent altitude changes and steep turns.* *To ensure best alert quality, PowerFLARM therefore does not use ADS-B data to compute alerts for glider targets. Instead, it will exclusively rely on the target's much more precise FLARM data.* I want to be able to see the Flying Doctor and the Mining-fly-in-fly-out plane just like a flarm target. And that is not the case with a powerFlarm unless these planes are flarm equipped. All you get is: "incoming" - no direction. PowerFlarm does not display transponder traffic sufficiently. I am waiting for TABS and am happy to pay $1500 for something that actually works. Erich On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: > Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye out! :P > > It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its > capabilities/requirements. > > You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and > that's just not true. > > With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude information > for: > - PowerFLARM traffic > - OzFLARM traffic > - ADS-B equipped traffic > You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators' > > You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down to a > mere 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders. > > It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but they've > clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to force upgrades > to the latest standard, with all the associated benefits that entails. > Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working just as it > always has. > > PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only are the > frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but the FCC also > mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No conspiracy theory there. > > Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue. > Other entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal information > in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't give two hoots if > someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc > but others may and can try suing the bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting > it happen. A detailed article in Gliding International covered this. > > If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision > avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of safety, > once the privacy issue is addressed. So long as they keep their word on > this, I have no problem with the path they've taken. > > Best regards, > > Casey > PowerFLARM user since 2012 > > iPad transmission > > > On 21 May 2015, at 10:07, [email protected] > wrote: > > > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > > [email protected] > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > [email protected] > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > [email protected] > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) > > 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) > > 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike Borgelt) > > 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000 > > From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> > > Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > > <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: > > <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > > > > Please correct me if I am wrong: > > Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > > ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly > working > > flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! > > > > Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people own > > gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. > > Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not cheap > > instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a > powerFlarm. > > ..I would sign if I were you. > > Erich > > > > My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit like a > > joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of > direction. > > TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/01668b35/attachment.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000 > > From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > > To: [email protected] > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > > > As far as I have understood and experienced: > > > > Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have two > > gliders to confirm) > > but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work in Australia (we can confirm > > that also :-( ). > > > > LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian frequency > > when they find themselves in Australia. > > We also have experienced this. > > Encryption will not change this as it is automatically. > > > > Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have > > consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the WGC in > > Benalla. > > > > Grietje > > > >> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote: > >> > https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > >> > >> Please correct me if I am wrong: > >> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > >> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly > >> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! > >> > >> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people > >> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. > >> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not > >> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a > >> powerFlarm. > >> ..I would sign if I were you. > >> Erich > >> > >> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit > >> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication > >> of direction. > >> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Aus-soaring mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/eb6c53ac/attachment.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000 > > From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > > <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > > > > Erich, > > > > ADSB monitoring should give direction just like > > Flarm. You may be seeing Mode S returns with no > > ADSB position/speed/direction information in the > > message. Or Mode C returns which won't give > > direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. > > > > OK what is TABS? > > > > Mike > > > > At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: > >> < > https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > > > https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > >> > >> Please correct me if I am wrong: > >> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > >> ..unless you are happy with being forced to > >> replace your perfectly working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly > $2500! > >> > >> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be > >> affected. Some people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation > Zeus.. > >> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your > >> very nice but not cheap instrument will be > >> rendered useless and you will have to buy a powerFlarm. > >> ..I would sign if I were you. > >> Erich > >> > >> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic > >> monitoring is a bit like a joke. Yes, there is a > >> warning of "incoming". But no indication of direction. > >> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > >> ? > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Aus-soaring mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of > > quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 > > www.borgeltinstruments.com > > tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 > > mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 > > P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/c05f252a/attachment.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000 > > From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > > <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: > > <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Hi Mike (et al), > > yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system. > > But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm - it > > still is not the best solution. Just more expensive. > > If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do not > get > > a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm traffic is > > shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc... > > The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after you > > throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument panel and get > > additional boxes containing magic smoke. > > > > TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System". > >> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another (new) > box > > containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder smoke. It > > will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm. > > "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke. > > > http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS%20briefing.pdf > > > > I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS. > > However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to fork > out > > $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and want > > all other manufacturers out of their business. > > My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it is > too > > light (that's why it is great for a glider). > > > > The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to > operate > > at different frequencies - to work in different countries. Later Flarm > > firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and allow you to take > a > > flarm from Europe to the US and Australia without any problems. > > Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change > frequencies > > - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that! > Why? > > because they can! > > ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the millenair > > website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't wait for TABS. > > > > Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise the good > > 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch automatically > according > > where you are. However, I can foresee that being stopped by the "flarm > data > > encryption". You will need two powerflarms: One for Europe and the other > > for US/Australia. > > > > A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and just > using > > it with a sim card from that country.. > > > > Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that are > > capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm. > > Erich > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Erich, > >> > >> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be seeing > >> Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction information in the > >> message. Or Mode C returns which won't give direction either. Both > should > >> give relative altitudes though. > >> > >> OK what is TABS? > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: > >> > >> > >> > https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > >> > >> Please correct me if I am wrong: > >> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > >> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly > working > >> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! > >> > >> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people own > >> gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. > >> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not cheap > >> instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a > powerFlarm. > >> ..I would sign if I were you. > >> Erich > >> > >> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit like > a > >> joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of > direction. > >> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > >> ? > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Aus-soaring mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >> > >> *Borgelt Instruments* - > >> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 * > >> www.borgeltinstruments.com > >> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 > >> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 > >> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Aus-soaring mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 > > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >
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