Thanks mike, will have a read. If you look at 1090Mhz using the cheap HDTV dongles ( <$30.00) and SDR sharp it amazing anything gets decoded! For those wanting to decode ADS-B there are some links on the net and SDR sharp comes with a 1090 add on so you can decode them via the cheap USB dongle and an antenna.
Nigel Nigel Andrews Andrews Electronic Design Pty Ltd 9 Condamine Court Killarney,Queensland,4373 Po Box 1195 Warwick Qld 4370 M: +61 419 989288 E: [email protected] Andrews Electronic Design Pty Ltd ABN - 921-33392140 Electronics engineering for the future **************DISCLAIMER************ The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Friday, 22 May 2015 10:21 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 34 Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike Borgelt) 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike Borgelt) 4. TIS, ADS-B (Nigel Andrews) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 07:48:15 +1000 From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Excellent discussion of TCAS here. Well worth reading. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system Yes, it is Wikipedia but most uncontroversial stuff is reasonably accurate I've found. There is some discussion there as the why the US has gone to UAT on 978 Mhz due to bandwidth limitations on the 1090 extended squitter transponder frequency. It isn't a future problem as apparently traffic in the LA basin can overload the system already if everyone is using 1090 ES. I guess there's no chance of that in Australia as the authorities deliberately make light and sports aviation more difficult and expensive than it has to be. Also this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_transponder_interrogation_modes#Mode_S although that article implies you need Mode S for TCAS to see you. You only need Mode C. Note there is an encrypted Mode 5 used by the military. Mike Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150 522/81164a5c/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 08:16:01 +1000 From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <[email protected]> Message-ID: <caph3iney43xlykgpwapclmtp0tjhtfjtf4a4jxeabqoqrep...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" ..responded off-line. Anyone interested: I asked a few questions to Urs directly. I will openly apologise if I "got it all wrong" and Flarm will change the unethical business phylosophy. In fact: I will become a Flarm supporter. However, so far I am not in favour of the company. Erich On 21/05/2015 9:36 PM, "Urs Rothacher" <[email protected]> wrote: > Erich, > > The devices you list (OzFLARM, LXwhatever etc.) work well with any FLARM > update. They is available for free from our website, or for some devices > from the original manufacturer. We have supported free, periodic, mandatory > updates for over 10 years now with no major issues. > > > > There are many good reasons to buy a PowerFLARM (higher range, two > antennas, etc), but your existing devices, even if they are 10 years old, > will continue to operate at the same or higher performance level (we did > add a few cool features in the recent v6 release, see release notes). > > > > PowerFLARM ADS-B traffic monitoring will show direction and much more, in > fact ADS-B is handled like a FLARM target (but within the natural > limitations of 1090 ADS-B) > > Only aircraft without ADS-B but with a ?normal? transponder are shown > without direction, but there isn?t much we can do about that; that > information simply does not exist. We do show altitude difference for those > aircraft and distance, which is **much** better than nothing?. > > > > It would be much more efficient to ask someone with knowledge of the facts > and/or technology before spreading wild rumors or starting personal attacks > and signing intentionally misleading petitions? > > > > Thanks > > Urs > > FLARM > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Erich Wittstock > *Sent:* Donnerstag, 21. Mai 2015 02:04 > *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. > *Subject:* [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > > > > > > Please correct me if I am wrong: > > Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > > ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly working > flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! > > > > Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people own > gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. > > Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not cheap > instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a powerFlarm. > > ..I would sign if I were you. > > Erich > > > > My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit like a > joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of direction. > > TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150 522/3ff5b866/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 08:55:12 +1000 From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" At 08:16 AM 22/05/2015, you wrote: >..responded off-line. >Anyone interested: I asked a few questions to Urs directly. >I will openly apologise if I "got it all wrong" and Flarm will >change the unethical business phylosophy. >In fact: I will become a Flarm supporter. >However, so far I am not in favour of the company. >Erich It was my understanding all along that what Flarm was discontinuing support on was the earlier pre PowerFlarm hardware but software updates would continue to be available for all the older units. This was discussed here a couple of months ago. Too bad if you recently bought an older unit though. I wish I could do that. I get enquiries every week about gear that is 10 to 25 years old and has passed into new hands, still working and the new owners need manuals or other support. I may need to start charging for this. It was also my understanding that ADSB traffic was shown up just like Flarm traffic and only Mode C and S were given range and altitude data only. This isn't terrible. I have a Zaon Flight Systems PCAS in the BD-4. Gives range and altitude information on transponder returns. Smaller than even a mini OzFlarm. Quite useful and much better than nothing although around the Darling Downs and Lockyer Valley there are plenty of non transponder equipped RAAus aircraft. For unknown reasons Zaon went out of business a while ago. Maintain good lookout. I've taken avoiding action over the Downs 25nm south of Toowoomba for a cropduster being ferried(no transponder) and about 15nm from Watt's Bridge where a YAK52 going Watts to Archerfield clearly didn't see us. Again no transponder return. In both cases I saw them far enough away to identify aircraft type, evaluate the threat and take avoiding action. However I'm of the opinion that the privacy issue is complete bollocks for the reason Nigel gave. IMO the encryption is merely for commercial advantage. I've only flown with a Flarm once. Complete pain going off when gliders I've already seen are entering the thermal. I did one installation of a MiniOZ and got about 500m range on the ground against Boonah's tug. When I was flying National contests with fixed turnpoints my mid air worries (and everyone worried about it) weren't out on track but in the pre-start milling around in large gaggles in weak thermals while full of water where you have little energy and options for avoiding action. I'm sure I'd feel differently in the Alps with high closing speeds right next to the terrain. Does anyone happen to know the climb and descent profiles of the PC-12 and KingAir as used by the Flying Doctor and others? If we knew we could be extra alert near airports they use where the profiles mean they could be where we are. I'm beginning to think that with all the technology and interaction with other airspace users having well intentioned amateurs giving flight instruction in gliders is an avoidable hazard. Our US friends seem to have it about right. Same ground school and exams as a power PPL. I'd add a syllabus and exam for gliding specific stuff. The FAA has published a "Glider Flying Handbook". Well worth downloading and reading. Mike Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150 522/f0aac7e2/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 10:03:31 +1000 From: "Nigel Andrews" <[email protected]> Subject: [Aus-soaring] TIS, ADS-B To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKHkN31zghRKpfIymq++SLjCgAAAEAAAAHdfnWyBUaxKjuFJChwv [email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark et al Just a few things... I wasn't aware that the TIS service on 1090 is broadcasting weather information? It does broadcast aircraft information i.e. other aircraft in the area and some messages from ATC which on the 1090 service is in the process of being phased out, they do have weather on UAT. Here in Australia the old Mode A/C only interrogators are slowly being replaced by Mode S and the initial rollout of ADS-B stations I believe has stopped for the time being as it provides the necessary coverage for the commercial users it was aimed to do at the start. So yes your old mode A/C will still work but there will come a time when you will be asked to upgrade to mode S with ADS-B or just ADS-B. I was part of the ADS-B process back when Greg Dunstone from Airservices started the implementation. A group of us were asked to sit on a committee that met regularly to start forming the ADS-B strategy. I was asked because at that time I owned Microair and we were building a Mode A/C transponder so our input technically was appreciated. ASA were faced with a dilemma, a huge amount of money was needed to upgrade the aging ground station interrogators and if they could reduce this number by replacing them with ADS-B then it could be a win for all but it required the GA fleet to also upgrade. A could go on but one of the proposals was to provide for free an ADS-B package to all registered aircraft for FREE. Basically it was cheaper to spend some $60m on doing this than spend some $200m on upgrading to Mode S. So Microair was asked to provide a quote on what we thought a unit would cost and from Memory it was < $8,000 at the time. So cutting this short a roadshow was launched and after it the opinion was that not too many wanted ADS-B or could see a need for it or were worried big brother was watching so that idea was scrapped! So the mandate for the big guys was done and here we are now, and a lot of thought did go into what type of ADS-B system was to be used and it made sense to use 1090 here as airlines already had the hardware. Now the latest issue is the use of drones and the regular incursions still of light aircraft, ultralights and gliders so the ADS-B discussion is back again in earnest and discussions with CASA . Since the release of TSO C199 there has been a mad scramble to develop low cost ADS-B out ( including 2 Australian companies :-) ) so hence the discussion on TABS. Google is leading the way with a proposed low cost TABS unit as well as others in the USA . The problem here is that the low level reception of ADS-B for ATC is limited largely to the coastal areas so ASA will need to look at putting more in and it happens now as if there is a regional airport that needs ADS-B service they put one in. But for us TABS offers a great deal more than just ADS-B out, it has in so you can see others, it replies to Mode S TCAS interrogations so commercial TCAS can see you and others can see you with ADS-B in and will be designed to run on batteries so ideal for glider fitment and alike - and the aim is to keep the costs way down so everyone will think about buying one. Mark you made a comment there is little benefit to a GA pilot by fitting ADS-B. I am not sure where you heard this, pilots I talk to envy the Flarm system we have and often comment on why doesn't GA have the same and I inform them we do. There are thousands of PCAS devices bought by GA pilots who want to see others so they obviously see a need to know where someone is! PCAS is a vastly inferior solution as it relies on replies from other mode A/C equipped aircraft, if they are not replying to Ground or TCAS aircraft then they are blind. ADS-B offers full coverage sense and avoid with a lot more information. I don't think you will find anyone replacing their mode A/C with another mode A/C - most are installing Mode S and either installing an approved GPS or waiting until the price comes down to install one and then squitter ADS-B. More companies are now selling their PDA software with ADS-B displayed so the ADS-B revolution is well under way - like it or not. Ships haven't sailed Mark, at the moment both ASA and CASA are listening to input from the industry regarding management of an emerging industry - UAV's. With thousands potentially using 1090 for ADS-B they realise the band will be useless as it cannot handle this traffic. I can tell you UAT as well as other RF links have been suggested and are being looked in to. I am actively involved in this, I also have a US patent application that was released a month ago on a CAS solution for UAV's so this whole discussion is something I know about . Cheers Nigel -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Thursday, 21 May 2015 7:22 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 32 Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: ADS-B mandate (Mark Newton) 2. Re: ADS-B mandate (Mike Borgelt) 3. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 27 (Mike Borgelt) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 17:46:12 +1000 From: Mark Newton <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ADS-B mandate To: [email protected], "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On May 21, 2015, at 3:27 PM, Nigel Andrews <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes the mandate does not mean everyone. Interestingly enough the attitude of > the US pilots has changed. A friend of mine attended a convention in the USA > a month ago and the general feeling now is that most prefer to be > voluntarily fitting ADS-B out be it UAT or 1090 or both as they see the > benefits in being able to see others and have their glass screens issue > warnings if a potential collision is arising. Most are installing ADS-B OUT because once you?ve spent money on the TSO GPS source and the ADS-B transponder, the incremental additional cost of ADS-B IN is pretty small. In the US (and unlike Australia), ADS-B IN comes with extra services. The low-bandwidth data channel used in extended squitter mode is used to provide near-real-time weather info, so anyone flying with EFIS/PFD systems gets something roughly equivalent to a time-delayed weather radar with traffic avoidance data superimposed on it. That?s desirable enough to spend a few grand on. For less than $5k in the E/AB market, you can equip your glass panel with some stupidly impressive situational awareness capabilities. Australia has chosen not to go down that route. There?s very little benefit to a GA pilot from ADS-B: There?s no weather data provided, and collision avoidance with IFR traffic is virtually unchanged because most IFR traffic has TCAS which works perfectly well with mode-C transponders, and virtually no VFR traffic has ADS-B OUT. ADS-B provides traffic density benefits to airlines, and cost benefits to ATC, and there?s no great incentive to VFR aircraft operators to pay their own good money to subsidize Qantas, Virgin and Air Services Australia?s operations. > Remember ADS-B also can give > you airspace clearance as ATC will be using this more and more. Air Services will be happy to work with mode-C for the indefinite future. They?re installing ground stations and satellite transponders for ADS-B, but they?re not decommissioning their existing radar systems, so if you?re sufficiently well equipped to get clearances now you?ll continue to be sufficiently well equipped to get them well into the dim dark future. > We should be pushing the UAT version of ADS-B, far superior to 1090 > transponder technology and offers a full datalink capability so weather > warnings, ATC directions etc can be broadcasted. We only went down the road > of using 1090 here because a lot of the commercial aircraft were fitted with > mode S transponders and only needed to add an approved GPS source to go > ADS-B That ship has sailed. Australia had this argument a decade and a half ago, between Air Services and the airlines, before private aviators even knew there was an issue they needed to get upset about. By the time any of us worked out how poor the Australian variant of ADS-B was going to be for private VFR, it was all over bar the shouting. It ain?t going to change now. - mark ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 17:59:13 +1000 From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ADS-B mandate To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Casey, a simple Mode C transponder makes you visible to TCAS equipped aircraft which IIRC includes the Flying Doctor. Nowadays in Australia you can't do that for a new install so you get a Mode S transponder which is also Mode C capable and make sure you get one that is ADSB ready. Then you only need the GPS. Many people in the US have correctly identified the high cost stumbling block to ADSB which is the need for the fancy certified GPS unit. When an excellent GPS module (that's the whole shebang ready to go. Excellent GPS chips like the uBlox LEA7 series are around $17) costs at most a couple of hundred dollars people rightly balk at shelling out $3000 to $5000 for the certified unit and that's without the certified GPS antenna and installation. Particularly for VFR aircraft. After all when did the GPS in your iPad , phone etc last tell you lies? The exposure to the sky in an aircraft is excellent so no urban canyon shielding, multipath etc. The US has gone for 1090 Extended squitter for heavies to maintain ICAO and international compatibility. The fear was that if this was to equip all the light aircraft the whole system would be overloaded and cease to work AT ALL. Hence UAT. for the rest of us this unfortunately means that the world's largest market is oriented towards expensive 1090 units or cheaper prolific UAT which doesn't do us any good. When ADSB was first mooted around 20 years ago there were IIRC 4 different rf links on the table. The Swedes had something called VDL which I gather used a VHF frequency. With now 1440 VHF channels I'd have thought you could dedicate TWO channels to collision avoidance and have a comms radio with attached GPS which gave you voice comms and a Flarm like data comm with range of many tens of nautical miles. This whole thing is one giant bureaucratic charlie foxtrot. Mike At 04:09 PM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >I'm sorry Nigel but it's not superior at all, it's downright >dangerous. The adoption of UAT in the USA is a mistake. With UAT >based ADS-B, you are invisible to commercial aircraft! TCAS is >unable to see UAT. So Qantas Link, Rex, the RFDS etc can't see >you. ATC can but that is of minimal use to us. Datalinked weather >is a nice bit of window dressing but not at the expense of 76,000kg >of high-speed rolled sheet metal doing 300kts not being able to see me! > >Case > >iPad transmission > >We should be pushing the UAT version of ADS-B, far superior to 1090 >>transponder technology and offers a full datalink capability so weather >>warnings, ATC directions etc can be broadcasted. We only went down the road >>of using 1090 here because a lot of the commercial aircraft were fitted with >>mode S transponders and only needed to add an approved GPS source to go >>ADS-B >_______________________________________________ >Aus-soaring mailing list >[email protected] >To check or change subscription details, visit: >http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150 521/b86bb97b/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 17:45:19 +1000 From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 27 To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" That's a pretty safe bet. If you are going to use a traffic awareness system VFR it is really only to tell you that there is traffic and roughly where to look. Then it is up to you to see and avoid. The problem with Flarm is the limited range so that you get a traffic warning followed by a collision while still looking for the traffic. Hence the collision warning algorithms. Mike At 04:15 PM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >Can I assume at this point in time that there are no manufacturers >putting gliding "use case specific collision algorithms" like we >have in Flarm into these GA centric options? > > > > > On 21 May 2015, at 3:18 pm, > [email protected] wrote: > > > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > > [email protected] > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > [email protected] > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > [email protected] > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Google and TABS (Nigel Andrews) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 15:13:04 +1000 > > From: "Nigel Andrews" <[email protected]> > > Subject: [Aus-soaring] Google and TABS > > To: <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: > > > <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKHkN31zghRKpfIymq++SLjCgAAAEAAAAJBsAifVviFJnVKi1d4S [email protected]> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Richard, google are not designing their own system - they are following the > > TSO C199 which is put out by the FAA. > > > > Please read this and you will understand what aviation > manufacturers have to > > endure - painful but it ensures we are all on the same playing > field when it > > comes to compatibility. > > > > As per my previous posts, TABS was put out because of a need to have low > > cost CAS systems. > > > > Cheers > > > > Nigel > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > Sent: Thursday, 21 May 2015 2:56 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 26 > > > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > > [email protected] > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > [email protected] > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > [email protected] > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 24 (Richard Frawley) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:55:53 +1000 > > From: Richard Frawley <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 24 > > To: "[email protected]" > > <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > I am interested to see if Google make it open such that Flarm like > > "collisions" algorithms can be implemented, of course full > > compatibility/interoperability and operational integrity has to be > > guaranteed/underwritten to ensure safety. > > > > Do you put your life in the hands of nebulous code hackers or a > company that > > has value that you or others might be able to claim on which in turn drives > > them to provide defensible products? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> On 21 May 2015, at 2:39 pm, [email protected] > >> wrote: > >> > >> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > >> [email protected] > >> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >> [email protected] > >> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at > >> [email protected] > >> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > >> > >> > >> Today's Topics: > >> > >> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23 (Nigel Andrews) > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Message: 1 > >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:38:51 +1000 > >> From: "Nigel Andrews" <[email protected]> > >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23 > >> To: <[email protected]> > >> Message-ID: > > > <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKHkN31zghRKpfIymq++SLjCgAAAEAAAAMG+araISKRGmCY3TRBm > > [email protected]> > >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >> > >> Casey, > >> > >> It's not Flarm at fault for breaching privacy, is flarmnet - these guys > > need > >> to be shut down if there is an issue with privacy. > >> > >> The statement that encryption was a result of privacy concerns is the bit > >> that doesn't gel. > >> > >> And yes Flarm did make a statement way back before they made lots of money > >> that the RF protocol would be made freely available. > >> > >> But in this world of every increasing numbers of aviation users including > >> now the likes of UAV's that we all talk the same talk when it comes to CAS > >> and follow standards that are created to protect the end user (in theory) > >> and allow many manufacturers to offer a device - not just one. > >> > >> Google intend making thousands of low cost, TABS devices which talk to GA, > >> commercial aircraft, UAV's, ultralights, gliders, balloons - anyone who > > has > >> a mode S, or Mode S with ADS-B out, or ADS-B out or TABS! > >> > >> Nigel > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >> [email protected] > >> Sent: Thursday, 21 May 2015 2:19 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23 > >> > >> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > >> [email protected] > >> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >> [email protected] > >> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at > >> [email protected] > >> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > >> "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > >> > >> > >> Today's Topics: > >> > >> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22 (Casey Jay Lewis) > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Message: 1 > >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:18:45 +0800 > >> From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> > >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22 > >> To: "[email protected]" > >> <[email protected]> > >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >> > >> Gents, are you forgetting flarmnet.org that links the device to an > >> individual? Full name, home club, etc > >> > >> iPhone Transmission > >> > >>>> On 21 May, 2015, at 12:14, [email protected] > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> You can reach the person managing the list at > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > >>> > >>> > >>> Today's Topics: > >>> > >>> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 (Nigel Andrews) > >>> > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> Message: 1 > >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:14:23 +1000 > >>> From: "Nigel Andrews" <[email protected]> > >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 > >>> To: <[email protected]> > >>> Message-ID: > >>> > >>> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKHkN31zghRKpfIymq++SLjCgAAAEAAAAAO5V/cTJT1Jqg > >>> 9X7v62A/[email protected]> > >>> > >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >>> > >>> Yep, thanks Al I think you covered it - privacy laws usually are aimed > >>> at those who rebroadcast information without the owner's permission, > >>> not the manufacturer who made the phone or two way radio that was > >>> intercepted! There are thousands of ADS-B aircraft out there > >>> broadcasting their make, callsign, position, speed, altitude - why > >>> isn't king or garmin getting sued over privacy laws. > >>> > >>> Nigel > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >>> [email protected] > >>> Sent: Thursday, 21 May 2015 2:07 PM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 > >>> > >>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> You can reach the person managing the list at > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >>> than > >>> "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > >>> > >>> > >>> Today's Topics: > >>> > >>> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Al Borowski) > >>> 2. flarmin' hell (Casey Jay Lewis) > >>> > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> Message: 1 > >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 13:26:54 +1000 > >>> From: Al Borowski <[email protected]> > >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 > >>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > >>> <[email protected]> > >>> Message-ID: > >>> > >>> <cacsx6xcfn79fab2ugawcgox+gv8agdwtudeaofsqzfe4cuw...@mail.gmail.com> > >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> > >>>> On 21/05/2015, Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but > >>>> they've clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to > >>>> force upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated > >>>> benefits that entails. Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment > >>>> will keep working just as it always has. > >>> > >>> Unless I'm missing something obvious - if the protocol changes, but > >>> some devices cannot be upgraded, those devices will become blind to > >>> other gliders. Is this incorrect? > >>> > >>> If you have a fleet of gliders and half suddenly become invisible due > >>> to time-bombed firmware, safety is lost. > >>> > >>>> Other > >>>> entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal information > >>>> in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't give two hoots > >>>> if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, FlightAware, > >>>> FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the bejesus out of > >>>> PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article in Gliding > >>>> International covered > >>> this. > >>> > >>> I'm not a subscriber but I'd love to read that article. Is it illegal > >>> for me to "track" a glider's position by listening to radio calls via > >>> an internet stream? If so, surely the fault lies with me, not the > >>> manufacturer of the radio gear. If someone uses a crowbar to break > >>> into my house, I can't sue the manufacturer of the crowbar... > >>> > >>>> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision > >>>> avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of > >>>> safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. > >>> > >>> Frankly, I'm not sure the problem is sharing the "collision avoidance > >>> technology" as if it is a clever secret no-one has figured out. I'd be > >>> surprised if multiple people on this list couldn't come up with a > >>> FLARM alternative, including designing the PCBs, programming the > >>> firmware & making a reliable radio link. The problem is getting enough > >>> people to agree on a standard so all gliders can see each other. > >>> > >>> The motivation behind changing the protocol appears to be to > >>> deliberate obfuscate the signal that says "Hi Everyone, I am a glider > >>> at position X" to prevent third parties building compatible systems. > >>> Imagine if aircraft radios worked like this - Microair owners could > >>> only talk to other Microair owners etc. > >>> > >>> I could have sworn I remember Flarm saying the protocol would be an > >>> "Open Protocol in the interests of Safety" back when it was being > >> introduced. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> > >>> Al > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------ > >>> > >>> Message: 2 > >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:06:30 +0800 > >>> From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> > >>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > >>> To: "[email protected]" > >>> <[email protected]> > >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> > >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >>> > >>> I certainly share your desire to see those traffic types with greater > >>> resolution! > >>> > >>> Unfortunately, TABS is not designed to do that. It's a way of making 'us' > >>> visible to 'them'. As we pretty much all carry one or more accurate > >>> but not certified GPS sources already, it's purpose (FAA TSO-C199) is > >>> to make gliders and other exempted aircraft such as balloons visible, > >>> making use of these non-TSO'd GPS's for collision avoidance purposes. > >>> It's basically a cost effective way to turn us into non-certified ADS-B > >> out aircraft. > >>> > >>> ATC still won't use the ADS-B data due to signal integrity & fault > >>> monitoring reasons but it permits our current GPS sources (PowerFLARM, > >>> LX, CN etc) to be used for collision avoidance. > >>> > >>> In my case, I have an ADS-B Out capable, Mode S XPDR but no legal > >>> position information to feed it. If TABS is adopted, it would let me > >>> output my PF/LX GPS position to my XPDR, making me visible to systems > >>> such as TCAS in powered aircraft. But....it still doesn't add any > >>> visibility of powered aircraft to us. If they aren't ADS-B Out > >>> equipped, the best we can get is a range ring on PowerFLARM. Of > >>> course, this assumes you haven't spent 10's of thousands on TCAS for > >>> your sailplane. Who would?!? I guess we can only hope that AsA/CASA > >>> return to mandated ADS-B out for all powered aircraft, as the USA has > > done > >> with a 2020 deadline. > >>> > >>> Case > >>> > >>> iPad transmission > >>> > >>>>> On 21 May 2015, at 11:19, [email protected] > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> > >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> > >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> > >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Today's Topics: > >>>> > >>>> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Casey Jay Lewis) 2. > >>>> Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Erich Wittstock) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> - > >>>> > >>>> Message: 1 > >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:51:09 +0800 > >>>> From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 > >>>> To: "[email protected]" > >>>> <[email protected]> > >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >>>> > >>>> Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye > >>>> out! :P > >>>> > >>>> It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its > >>> capabilities/requirements. > >>>> > >>>> You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and > >>> that's just not true. > >>>> > >>>> With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude > >>>> information > >>> for: > >>>> - PowerFLARM traffic > >>>> - OzFLARM traffic > >>>> - ADS-B equipped traffic > >>>> You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators' > >>>> > >>>> You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down > >>>> to a > >>> mere 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders. > >>>> > >>>> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but > >>>> they've > >>> clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to force > >>> upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated benefits that > >>> entails. Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working > >>> just as it always has. > >>>> > >>>> PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only > >>>> are the > >>> frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but the FCC > >>> also mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No conspiracy theory > >> there. > >>>> > >>>> Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue. > >>> Other entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal > >>> information in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't > >>> give two hoots if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, > >>> FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the > >>> bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article in > >> Gliding International covered this. > >>>> > >>>> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision > >>> avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of > >>> safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. So long as they keep > >>> their word on this, I have no problem with the path they've taken. > >>>> > >>>> Best regards, > >>>> > >>>> Casey > >>>> PowerFLARM user since 2012 > >>>> > >>>> iPad transmission > >>>> > >>>>> On 21 May 2015, at 10:07, [email protected] > >>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >>>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Today's Topics: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) > >>>>> 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike > >>>>> Borgelt) 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> - > >>>>> - > >>>>> > >>>>> Message: 1 > >>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000 > >>>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> > >>>>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > >>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > >>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>>> Message-ID: > >>>>> > >>>>> <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com> > >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >>>>> > >>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag > >>>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > >>>>> > >>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: > >>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > >>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly > >>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! > >>>>> > >>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people > >>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. > >>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not > >>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a > >>> powerFlarm. > >>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. > >>>>> Erich > >>>>> > >>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit > >>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no > >>>>> indication of > >>> direction. > >>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > >>>>> scrubbed... > >>>>> URL: > >>>>> > <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen>>>>> > t s/20150521/01668b35/attachment.html> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>> > >>>>> Message: 2 > >>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000 > >>>>> From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> > >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > >>>>> > >>>>> As far as I have understood and experienced: > >>>>> > >>>>> Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have > >>>>> two gliders to confirm) but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work > >>>>> in Australia (we can confirm that also :-( ). > >>>>> > >>>>> LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian > >>>>> frequency when they find themselves in Australia. > >>>>> We also have experienced this. > >>>>> Encryption will not change this as it is automatically. > >>>>> > >>>>> Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have > >>>>> consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the WGC > >>>>> in Benalla. > >>>>> > >>>>> Grietje > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote: > >>>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-a > >>>>>> g ainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: > >>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > >>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly > >>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people > >>>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. > >>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not > >>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy > >>>>>> a powerFlarm. > >>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. > >>>>>> Erich > >>>>>> > >>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit > >>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no > >>>>>> indication of direction. > >>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>>> > >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > >>>>> scrubbed... > >>>>> URL: > >>>>> > <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen>>>>> > t s/20150521/eb6c53ac/attachment.html> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>> > >>>>> Message: 3 > >>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000 > >>>>> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > >>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > >>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> > >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > >>>>> > >>>>> Erich, > >>>>> > >>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be > >>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction > >>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give > >>>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. > >>>>> > >>>>> OK what is TABS? > >>>>> > >>>>> Mike > >>>>> > >>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: > >>>>>> > <https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition->>>>>> a > >>>>>> gainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol>https:/ > >>>>>> gainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol>/ > >>>>>> www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-f > >>>>>> l arm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: > >>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > >>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly > >>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people > >>>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. > >>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not > >>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy > >>>>>> a powerFlarm. > >>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. > >>>>>> Erich > >>>>>> > >>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit > >>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no > >>>>>> indication of direction. > >>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > >>>>>> ? > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>>> > >>>>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring > >>>>> instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com > >>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 > >>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 > >>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia > >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > >>>>> scrubbed... > >>>>> URL: > >>>>> > <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen>>>>> > t s/20150521/c05f252a/attachment.html> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>> > >>>>> Message: 4 > >>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000 > >>>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > >>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > >>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>>> Message-ID: > >>>>> > >>>>> <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com> > >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Mike (et al), > >>>>> yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system. > >>>>> But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm - > >>>>> it still is not the best solution. Just more expensive. > >>>>> If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do > >>>>> not get a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm > >>>>> traffic is shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc... > >>>>> The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after > >>>>> you throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument > >>>>> panel and get additional boxes containing magic smoke. > >>>>> > >>>>> TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System". > >>>>>> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another > >>>>>> (new) box > >>>>> containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder > >>>>> smoke. It will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm. > >>>>> "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke. > >>>>> http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS > >>>>> % > >>>>> 20briefing.pdf > >>>>> > >>>>> I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS. > >>>>> However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to > >>>>> fork out > >>>>> $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and > >>>>> want all other manufacturers out of their business. > >>>>> My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it > >>>>> is too light (that's why it is great for a glider). > >>>>> > >>>>> The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to > >>>>> operate at different frequencies - to work in different countries. > >>>>> Later Flarm firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and > >>>>> allow you to take a flarm from Europe to the US and Australia > >>>>> without any > >>> problems. > >>>>> Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change > >>>>> frequencies > >>>>> - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that! > >>> Why? > >>>>> because they can! > >>>>> ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the > >>>>> millenair website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't > >>>>> wait > >>> for TABS. > >>>>> > >>>>> Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise the > >>>>> good 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch > >>>>> automatically according where you are. However, I can foresee that > >>>>> being stopped by the "flarm data encryption". You will need two > >>>>> powerflarms: One for Europe and the other for US/Australia. > >>>>> > >>>>> A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and > >>>>> just using it with a sim card from that country.. > >>>>> > >>>>> Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that > >>>>> are capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm. > >>>>> Erich > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt < > >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Erich, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be > >>>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction > >>>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give > >>>>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> OK what is TABS? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-a > >>>>>> g ainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: > >>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > >>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly > >>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people > >>>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. > >>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not > >>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy > >>>>>> a > >>> powerFlarm. > >>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. > >>>>>> Erich > >>>>>> > >>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit > >>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no > >>>>>> indication of > >>> direction. > >>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > >>>>>> ? > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>>>> > >>>>>> *Borgelt Instruments* - > >>>>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 > >>>>>> * www.borgeltinstruments.com > >>>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 > >>>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 > >>>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > >>>>> scrubbed... > >>>>> URL: > >>>>> > <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen>>>>> > t s/20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>>> > >>>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 > >>>>> ******************************************** > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> Message: 2 > >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 13:14:34 +1000 > >>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 > >>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > >>>> <[email protected]> > >>>> Message-ID: > >>>> > >>>> <caph3infsfuvpcpgv8efhqxyfcm0fqmx+a1yk3nqxuhy9hvr...@mail.gmail.com> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >>>> > >>>> So far it's a hit by a "spud gun". You don't even wanna know that the > >>>> shot gun impact would look like.. ;-) > >>>> > >>>> I am not worried about other gliders - they will be flarm equipped. I > >>>> do worry about GA traffic. Because any "near-miss" will compromise > >>>> our freedom of (gliding) ability. > >>>> PowerFlarm will tell me: there is a transponder signal in a "near > >>>> enough is good enough" manner (no punt intended). > >>>> > >>>> OK, taken from the powerflarm manual: > >>>> *Mode C signals only carry altitude information, but no > >>>> identification. To avoid that an the aircraft?s own Mode C > >>>> transponder is constantly displayed as a very close target, > >>>> PowerFLARM identifies the strongest Mode C signal and suppresses it.* > >>>> (no surprise here - that's why mode-s was implemented) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> *ADS-B alertsADS-B OUT broadcasts have originally been designed for > >>>> ground- based surveillance and collision avoidance by Air Traffic > >>>> Control. The use of ADS-B for airborne collision alerts is often > >>>> limited by factors such as:? Absence of horizontal and/or vertical > >>>> speed data? Absence of GPS altitude data? Erroneous transmission of > >>> position and/or velocity data? > >>>> Time lag in position data* > >>>> ...bla bla bla... and then this: > >>>> *However, ADS-B does not provide sufficiently precise data to warn > >>>> about glider traffic with its frequent altitude changes and steep > >>>> turns.* *To ensure best alert quality, PowerFLARM therefore does not > >>>> use ADS-B data to compute alerts for glider targets. Instead, it will > >>>> exclusively rely on the target's much more precise FLARM data.* > >>>> > >>>> I want to be able to see the Flying Doctor and the > >>>> Mining-fly-in-fly-out plane just like a flarm target. And that is not > >>>> the case with a powerFlarm unless these planes are flarm equipped. > >>>> All you get is: "incoming" - no direction. > >>>> > >>>> PowerFlarm does not display transponder traffic sufficiently. > >>>> > >>>> I am waiting for TABS and am happy to pay $1500 for something that > >>>> actually works. > >>>> Erich > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye > >>>>> out! :P > >>>>> > >>>>> It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its > >>>>> capabilities/requirements. > >>>>> > >>>>> You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and > >>>>> that's just not true. > >>>>> > >>>>> With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude > >>>>> information > >>>>> for: > >>>>> - PowerFLARM traffic > >>>>> - OzFLARM traffic > >>>>> - ADS-B equipped traffic > >>>>> You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators' > >>>>> > >>>>> You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down > >>>>> to a mere 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders. > >>>>> > >>>>> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but > >>>>> they've clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to > >>>>> force upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated > >>>>> benefits > >>> that entails. > >>>>> Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working just as > >>>>> it always has. > >>>>> > >>>>> PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only > >>>>> are the frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but > >>>>> the FCC also mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No > >>>>> conspiracy > >>> theory there. > >>>>> > >>>>> Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue. > >>>>> Other entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal > >>>>> information in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't > >>>>> give two hoots if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, > >>>>> FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the > >>>>> bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article > >>>>> in > >>> Gliding International covered this. > >>>>> > >>>>> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their > >>>>> collision avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the > >>>>> interests of safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. So long > >>>>> as they keep their word on this, I have no problem with the path > > they've > >> taken. > >>>>> > >>>>> Best regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> Casey > >>>>> PowerFLARM user since 2012 > >>>>> > >>>>> iPad transmission > >>>>> > >>>>>>> On 21 May 2015, at 10:07, > >>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >>>>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Today's Topics: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) > >>>>>> 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike > >>>>>> Borgelt) 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> - > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Message: 1 > >>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000 > >>>>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > >>>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > >>>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Message-ID: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com > >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag > >>>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: > >>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > >>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly > >>>>> working > >>>>>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people > >>>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. > >>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not > >>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy > >>>>>> a > >>>>> powerFlarm. > >>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. > >>>>>> Erich > >>>>>> > >>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit > >>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no > >>>>>> indication of > >>>>> direction. > >>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > >>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > >>>>>> scrubbed... > >>>>>> URL: < > >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment > >>>>> s > >>>>> /20150521/01668b35/attachment.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Message: 2 > >>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000 > >>>>>> From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > >>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As far as I have understood and experienced: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have > >>>>>> two gliders to confirm) but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work > >>>>>> in Australia (we can confirm that also :-( ). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian > >>>>>> frequency when they find themselves in Australia. > >>>>>> We also have experienced this. > >>>>>> Encryption will not change this as it is automatically. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have > >>>>>> consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the > >>>>>> WGC in Benalla. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Grietje > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote: > >>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag > >>>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: > >>>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > >>>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly > >>>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some > >>>>>>> people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. > >>>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not > >>>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy > >>>>>>> a powerFlarm. > >>>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. > >>>>>>> Erich > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit > >>>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no > >>>>>>> indication of direction. > >>>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > >>>>>> scrubbed... > >>>>>> URL: < > >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment > >>>>> s > >>>>> /20150521/eb6c53ac/attachment.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Message: 3 > >>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000 > >>>>>> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > >>>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > >>>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Erich, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be > >>>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction > >>>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give > >>>>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> OK what is TABS? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: > >>>>>>> < > >>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag > >>>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > >>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag > >>>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: > >>>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > >>>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly > >>>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly > >>>>> $2500! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some > >>>>>>> people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation > >>>>> Zeus.. > >>>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not > >>>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy > >>>>>>> a powerFlarm. > >>>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. > >>>>>>> Erich > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit > >>>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no > >>>>>>> indication of direction. > >>>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > >>>>>>> ? > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring > >>>>>> instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com > >>>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 > >>>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 > >>>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia > >>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > >>>>>> scrubbed... > >>>>>> URL: < > >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment > >>>>> s > >>>>> /20150521/c05f252a/attachment.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Message: 4 > >>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000 > >>>>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > >>>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > >>>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Message-ID: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com > >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Mike (et al), > >>>>>> yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system. > >>>>>> But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm > >>>>>> - it still is not the best solution. Just more expensive. > >>>>>> If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do > >>>>>> not > >>>>> get > >>>>>> a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm traffic > >>>>>> is shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc... > >>>>>> The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after > >>>>>> you throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument > >>>>>> panel and get additional boxes containing magic smoke. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System". > >>>>>>> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another > >>>>>>> (new) > >>>>> box > >>>>>> containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder > >>>>>> smoke. It will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm. > >>>>>> "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke. > >>>>> http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS > >>>>> % > >>>>> 20briefing.pdf > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS. > >>>>>> However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to > >>>>>> fork > >>>>> out > >>>>>> $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and > >>>>>> want all other manufacturers out of their business. > >>>>>> My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it > >>>>>> is > >>>>> too > >>>>>> light (that's why it is great for a glider). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to > >>>>> operate > >>>>>> at different frequencies - to work in different countries. Later > >>>>>> Flarm firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and allow > >>>>>> you to take > >>>>> a > >>>>>> flarm from Europe to the US and Australia without any problems. > >>>>>> Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change > >>>>> frequencies > >>>>>> - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that! > >>>>> Why? > >>>>>> because they can! > >>>>>> ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the > >>>>>> millenair website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't > >>>>>> wait > >>> for TABS. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise > >>>>>> the good 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch > >>>>>> automatically > >>>>> according > >>>>>> where you are. However, I can foresee that being stopped by the > >>>>>> "flarm > >>>>> data > >>>>>> encryption". You will need two powerflarms: One for Europe and the > >>>>>> other for US/Australia. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and > >>>>>> just > >>>>> using > >>>>>> it with a sim card from that country.. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that > >>>>>> are capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm. > >>>>>> Erich > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt < > >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Erich, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be > >>>>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction > >>>>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give > >>>>>>> direction either. Both > >>>>> should > >>>>>>> give relative altitudes though. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> OK what is TABS? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: > >>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag > >>>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: > >>>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. > >>>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly > >>>>> working > >>>>>>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some > >>>>>>> people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. > >>>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not > >>>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy > >>>>>>> a > >>>>> powerFlarm. > >>>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. > >>>>>>> Erich > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit > >>>>>>> like > >>>>> a > >>>>>>> joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of > >>>>> direction. > >>>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. > >>>>>>> ? > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> *Borgelt Instruments* - > >>>>>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since > >>>>>>> 1978 > >>>>>>> * www.borgeltinstruments.com > >>>>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 > >>>>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 > >>>>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > >>>>>> scrubbed... > >>>>>> URL: < > >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment > >>>>> s > >>>>> /20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>>>> > >>>>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 > >>>>>> ******************************************** > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > >>>> scrubbed... > >>>> URL: > >>>> > <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment>>>> s > >>>> /20150521/3324870f/attachment.html> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>>> > >>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 20 > >>>> ******************************************** > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------ > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>> > >>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 > >>> ******************************************** > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------ > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Aus-soaring mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >>> > >>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22 > >>> ******************************************** > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Aus-soaring mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >> > >> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23 > >> ******************************************** > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Aus-soaring mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >> > >> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 24 > >> ******************************************** > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 26 > > ******************************************** > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 27 > > ******************************************** > >_______________________________________________ >Aus-soaring mailing list >[email protected] >To check or change subscription details, visit: >http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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