> > Part of this is already true. But there is a
> > large duplication of code and effort across
> > the various projects.
>
> yep - in many cases, the evolution of systems also follows a very
> specific
> path.
<snip>
> I find these sorts of trends fairly interesting ...
uhuh.
> > Now the question is: do we wish to remove
> > all that duplication of efforts, create a
> > logical "separation of concerns" between
> > projects?
> >
> > Probably: yes.
> >
> > I was just wondering how we're going to do
> > that.
>
> The problem is not code but people.
if you replace "code" with "X", in the world of
computers, that's always valid. People write the
code, no?
> Most developers are arrogant and stubbon.
<snip>
> Now the above statement can be seen as both a good thing and a
> bad thing.
Really? In any case,
"Most developers are _not_ arrogant or stubborn" sounds
better to me than "Most developers are arrogant or stubborn".
But that might just be me =)
> If
> you look back through the archives it describes some of the things I did
> quite well ;) While I think in most cases, X was a good thing,
> there is also
> some mistakes I made (arrogance blinded me at the time).
X might be good, but in a world of people, not presenting it
with arrogance and stubbornness is just as important. Methinks.
> however there is also a very bad side-effect of that. Sometimes
> some people
> will not bother to evaluate anything based on technical merits
> (ie how good
> is it, how widespread is it, how likely to be supported into future etc).
> They instead base it on semi-religious beliefs, moral arguements
> and other
> trite. Ironically they are also the same people who slam GNU ...
> kettle ...
> black ... pot ... black ...
no comment ;)
> There is also a fairly big anti-standards here. Sometimes this is good
> because we get fab tools out of it (ie Velocity) but othertimes
> it is less
> than good. Even now we have esssentially 3 different build-system
> styles at
> jakarta, some differences are needed while others are just there
> to satisfy
> egos.
The key is in standardising the things that can be standardised at
no cost to the maximum extend possible. I think the build systems are
one area where things are improving. I can simply install and configure
ant with all modules you can think of, download all that's in Jakarta
CVS, do a search for all build.bat files, double click those, go drink
some coffee, come back, and have lots of cool software.
It's nice to have universal build systems. Fortunately, it is not a lot
of work to do it once you convince people we should make them universal.
Something else is the variety of coding conventions.
But a lot more important than those, imho, is the variety of design
patterns in use for different things. It's clear that somewhere, someone
figured out that it'd be useful to follow aforementioned
Kernel-App-Component structure. This insight was not put to use in
other projects (or even heard of) because it was not communicated
as well as it should have been.
> Anyways I would love to see Avalon Framework + parts of Excalibur more
> universal but I guess I have been burned a few times trying to
> get universal
> acceptance of anything .. let alone something as controvertial as a
> framework. Especially considering most developers seem to disdain
> security,
> reusability or any quality control.
I suspect there are many like you who've tried and given up, frustrated
by the failed attempt. Keyword again is communication.
> Changing developers is as
> easy as herding
> cats.
But I suspect there are many developers that actually want the tighter
relationships I'm talking about. Haven't heard anyone state the
contrary...
> Sam Ruby has been the only person inside apache to get this sort of
> cooperation ... not sure how we could do it. I plan to just use
> stuff in my
> own projects. If others use it then great, if they choose not to
> use it then
> thats fine aswell.
And back we are at the ESR vs RMS debate =)
yupyup. I'm gonna do more thinking.
grz,
- Leo, late for work(tm)
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