> -----Original Message----- > From: dank [mailto:dank] On Behalf Of Dan Kegel > > > Berin Loritsch wrote: > > You can't understand a framework until you understand what > the thought > > processes are in that framework. Before I started writing most of > > that documentation, we kept answering the same questions > over and over > > again. Guess what! The documentation represents the type of > > questions we had to answer. > > However, it appears to have usability problems. Try this > experiment: have someone who knows Java but not Avalon > look at the Avalon web page, and ask them to build a > demo program using Avalon. IMHO this should take no > longer than five minutes, including them figuring out > how to download Avalon and the demo. > I tried exactly this, and after half an hour, gave up.
Thank you for your well thought out response, and your _constructive_ criticism. I am forwarding this message to the avalon developer's site. We can address most of these issues hopefully sooner than later. > Concrete problems: > 1. http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/ has no 'Download' link. Easy to fix--however we follow the Jakarta site conventions which is not well thought out. Most projects on jakarta do not have a download link--and choose to have it under the main download links. > 2. The description of Framework is misleading: > "The framework is not a product or an API set or a set of > interfaces: it is a collection of code design patterns, rules, > guidelines and suggestions on how to write software that plugs > into the framework." > If that's the case, I would expect Framework to be named > Documentation, > and contain no code. Yet there is lots of code in Framework. That is a legacy description from before when I came on board. Avalon was originally meant as a baseline to start your project with. It has grown into something you use. > 3. The demo FTP server is apparantly in 'Cornerstone', but the > 'Download' link at http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/cornerstone/ > is broken or points to an empty directory. This is something we need to fix ASAP. The reality is that the FTP server, as well as other apps have been moved to jakarta-avalon-apps which uses cornerstone. > 4. There is no simple, step-by-step example showing how to > download and build a sample app, from start to finish. > Instead, I find a large number of wordy web pages that > talk on and on about how wonderful Avalon is, without actually > giving me any concrete assistance in getting started. You are right. The closest you are going to get at this time is the Developer's docs that describe how to work with the Framework and part of Excalibur. The truth is that frameworks don't have a lot of concrete parts to them. Most of the real work is in your app. The framework defines how to arrange things, so they can interact well and remain maintainable. The actual work is done by the components. > Now, I'd love to benchmark that demo FTP server, and give the > Avalon folks some feedback about their performance, but I'm > stymied; it was just too hard. This whole experience has > made me very skeptical about Avalon actually being usable by > someone who is not part of the Avalon team. Hence my suprise > when I saw that JMeter was considering using it. When I > realized the person who got them to consider it was on the > Avalon team, it made a lot more sense. When I talked to the person who posted it on the list, I managed to convince him. I will help in any way that I can--I am busy, so I can't contribute code. I can answer questions, though. > IMHO the JMeter team should assess the usability of Avalon > before jumping headfirst into using it. Talk to Cocoon developers and JAMES developers. They are using it now. > Fix #3 and #4, and I will be more than happy to help the > Avalon folks by stress-testing their demo apps. We will see how quickly we can address your concerns. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
