Which proofs I'm completely out of the loop!
Sound all great to me!

Marc

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@;apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:55 PM
> To: Avalon Developers List
> Subject: Re: PMC et al
> 
> 
> 
> Marc Schier wrote:
> > Hi all, 
> > 
> > I've resurfaced after a stressfull re-location to my new 
> home in Seattle.
> > Was a lot of work! Now after setting up my email access at 
> work I discovered
> > 672 new mails in the Avalon-Dev folder.  Sure a lot of 
> things have been
> > going on.  Now of course I'm writing the following without 
> really knowing if
> > it is still up for discussions or has already been decided.  
> > 
> > 
> >>Part of our problems has come from dividing implementations 
> >>and creating 
> >>feuds, so I would propose that:
> >>
> >>  1) the Components/services would eventually migrate to 
> >>Apache Commons.
> >>     not now, not tomorrow, but the path is set, and other projects
> >>     like Turbine will follow  :-)
> > 
> > 
> > I absolutely agree in seperating commit privileges and 
> creating several
> > PMCs, but I'm not sure if I'm convinced that it's the right 
> thing to move
> > "all" components to commons, if that's what's suggested.  
> > 
> > Apache commons IMO as it stands right now is mostly 
> non-component and
> > largely library material.  I think it's a very good 
> approach to centralize
> > this tooling development effort within Apache, and maybe 
> 30% of excalibur
> > should actually be in there (CLI, Concurrent, event...), 
> but I do not think
> > pure Avalon-services will fit, since they cannot easily be used in
> > Non-Avalon environments.  They do not represent the 
> classical software
> > tooling.  
> 
> We're talking about Apache Commons 
> (http://commons.apache.org) for the 
> Components, not Apache Jakarta Commons 
> (http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/).
> 
> Your comment is correct, Jakarta Commons never accepted our 
> components 
> and never will, but Apache Commons IIUC will, and Peter 
> Donald is on the 
> PMC :-)
> 
> > They rather perfectly fit into execution environments like Avalon
> > containers.  
> > 
> > In my opinion the first thing to do is to place the 
> mentioned 30% into
> > Commons.  I don't see why that has not been done faster 
> anyway, since it
> > will not effect more than build.xmls anyway.  
> 
> It has been partially done, and also mainly agreed upon, but 
> it's mostly 
> lack of time by developers.
> What was possible has been done, and we also merged some of our stuff 
> with J-C stuff, and the result seems very good :-)
> 
> > ( BTW How do you get commit
> > privileges in commons? )  
> 
> In Jakarta-Commons-Sandbox, just ask and you will be given.
> 
> >>  2) we keep only *one* set of utility classes called avalon-util
> >>     (no more fancy names, pleeease)
> >>
> >>  3) all containers in the making, like Merlin2 and Fortress
> >>     go in the scratchpad dir.
> >>
> >>This should *not* be done hastly, it will take time. But 
> >>we'll get there.
> >>
> >>In the end we will have *one* avalon CVS repo, with
> >>
> >>   ./src/framework/**.java
> >>   ./src/util/**.java
> >>   ./scratchpad/src/merlin2/**.java
> >>   ./scratchpad/src/fortress/**.java
> >>
> >>Some classes now in framework will go in util too probably, 
> >>we'll have 
> >>to vote case by case.
> > 
> > 
> > Excellent idea. Makes perfect sense to me. Nonetheless I 
> think we need a
> > service/component repository as well independent from 
> Commons to promote the
> > Avalon development and adoption of the framework.  
> 
> The repository should also be open to Turbine, Obj, Cocoon, etc 
> developers to place their stuff there, so putting it on common ground 
> seems more sensible to me.
> 
> Apache Commons will have different bylaws that Jakarta Commons, thus 
> making this part of its repo effrectively the Avalon 
> Component Repository.
> 
> > If we want developers and decision makers to know that 
> Avalon promotes
> > re-use we have to provide them with reusable components as 
> well and IMO from
> > one homogenious source. 
> 
> Been there, done that. IMHO it seems that Cornerstone was not 
> a massive 
> hit and that otehr projects would like to cooperate more in the 
> process... IMHO that is.
> 
> > So why not make Excalibur the Component Repository for Avalon after
> > migrating the containers, utils and commons material?  PMC 
> would have commit
> > privileges to framework, but for the repository we could be 
> more generous
> > and have more developers be able to add and work on service 
> implementations
> > compliant to framework and running inside an avalon 
> container (kinda like a
> > micro-sourceforge).  To promote Avalon development, we 
> could e.g. establish
> > an active web based community where users could vote on the 
> usefulness of a
> > particular service implementation.
> 
> Exactly what we are thinking to do with Apache Commons.
> But Apache Commons has just started, we'll see that the 
> solution will be 
> accepted by all and be solid.
> 
> As far as the concept of making such a place is agreed on, we 
> can always 
> discuss the details and actual locations later.
> 
> > As far as Phoenix is concerned, why not spinning it off as 
> a seperate
> > project?  This could give this excellent piece of software 
> more market
> > recognition than just being a sub project of Avalon.  
> >
> > So where am I in the course of the discussion?
> 
> Seems you're on the spot :-)
> 
> -- 
> Nicola Ken Barozzi                   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>              - verba volant, scripta manent -
>     (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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