> the situation with dependencies may be improved by carefully > restructuring Axis2 code into a number of smaller jars > (kernel + options)
I think this idea can work so long as: 1. The kernel is small and contains what you need to get started. i.e. It is possible to run Axis2 with just the kernel. 2. The options are separate downloads listed on the downloads page with good descriptions next to each as to why you need it. For example, Downloads Axis2 Optional Downloads Log4J support log4j.jar Adds support for the Log4J logger to Axis2 Mime support activation-1.1.jar Adds support for Mime binding types to Axis2 ... The key is to keep things simple and easy for users to understand. There can also be a large download that contains everything for people who want to download it all in one shot. Lawrence Oleg Kalnichevski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10/28/2007 11:25 AM Please respond to axis-dev@ws.apache.org To axis-dev@ws.apache.org cc Subject Re: [Axis2] Understanding Axis2 dependencies On Sun, 2007-10-28 at 10:18 -0400, Eran Chinthaka wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Ok I can see at least some one is really using commons-logging. I > understand and withdraw my proposal to remove the commons-logging. > And Oleg, well it might be the case that other jars also might have > dependencies on commons-logging, so we will have to live with it. > > Thanks, > Chinthaka > Hi Eran, In fact as far as HttpComponents are concerned we are trying to do away with commons-logging. We are considering replacing it with something else in HttpClient 4.0. The main point I was trying to make, however, is that the situation with dependencies may be improved by carefully restructuring Axis2 code into a number of smaller jars (kernel + options), so that the end users could strip it down to what is actually being needed and used and eliminate entire graphs of dependencies (direct and transitive). Again, for what it is worth. Cheers Oleg > robert lazarski wrote: > > I agree there are too many jars - I just did a project and it was a > > drag going through all those deps. > > > > But why are we limping with commons-logging 1.1 - because its a jar > > dep? IIRC correctly almost all of the apache projects use it. > > commons-logging is so well, common, you'll probably need it anyways. > > > > Debugging via logs is a very important thing and is more complicated > > than it may appear. There are not only several IDE's but several JEE > > servers. I actually use axis2 in alot of these JEE servers. When you > > start trying to debug axis2 via eclipse live on things like JBoss and > > JPDA, some loggers like commons-logging 1.0.4 will crash hard. JBoss > > is a good example of a complicated and hard to override logging > > scheme. > > > > In short, you're probably going to need commons-logging anyways since > > everyone uses it, and if history is any guide its going to be left up > > to the users to test any other logging on everything but tomcat. Since > > JDK logging is not at all common, help may be hard to come by. So I > > see pain with little benefit. I'm fighting for this because its not at > > all fun to waste time on logging problems, and commons-logging 1.1 > > simply works everywhere axis2 has run. > > > > Robert > > > > > > > > On 10/27/07, Eran Chinthaka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > Yes it is not broken. But why do we wanna limp with it? If we had used a > > separate, say String class without using java.lang.String, do you wanna > > keep it, if java.lang.String serves the purpose. > > Look at how pain it is to deal with numerous jars within Axis2. I'd like > > to cut down whatever possible whenever possible. > > > > Also I totally agree with Tom's comments. We can come up with usecases > > which commons-logging becomes handy. But how many users will use it or > > come across that use case vs how many users find it difficult to set up > > Axis2 to run within their box? I agree removing just two or three jars > > won't solve the problem, but at least that will be a start. > > > > Thanks, > > Chinthaka > > > > robert lazarski wrote: > >>>> Um, Axis2 has been on commons-logging 1.1 since right after Axis2 1.0 > >>>> . The most common JEE server is JBoss, and Axis2 and commons-logging > >>>> plays nice there. IMHO, If it aint broke, don't fix it. > >>>> > >>>> Robert > >>>> > >>>> On 10/23/07, Tom Jordahl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>>> Of course if Axis2 switched to commons-logging 1.1 and the container it > >>>>> is running in uses 1.0.4 (for instance) then you are worse off than when > >>>>> you started. > >>>>> > >>>>> My feeling is that commons-logging is a great idea - as long as you are > >>>>> the only one in the "pool" using it. Once you try to integrate with > >>>>> another J2EE server/project/whatever that *also* uses it, you tend to > >>>>> get in to trouble. > >>>>> > >>>>> Using the JDK api just gets Axis2 out of the line of fire in the > >>>>> "logging wars". > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Tom Jordahl > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: robert lazarski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:01 PM > >>>>> To: axis-dev@ws.apache.org > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Axis2] Understanding Axis2 dependencies > >>>>> > >>>>> I've been stuck in classloader hell many times and moving to > >>>>> commons-logging 1.1 solved a lot of problems for me - there's been a > >>>>> lot of work put into that area. Also, everything else in apache land > >>>>> uses commons-logging. +1 for keeping it. > >>>>> > >>>>> Robert > >>>>> > >>>>> On 10/22/07, Tom Jordahl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>>>> [Concerning commons-logging] > >>>>>>> also what would you replace it with ? > >>>>>> I actually think that the JDK 1.4 logging APIs would probably do the > >>>>>> trick, not have "jar hell" problems, and be functional enough for most > >>>>>> everyone. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Tom Jordahl > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Ajith Ranabahu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:39 PM > >>>>>> To: axis-dev@ws.apache.org > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Axis2] Understanding Axis2 dependencies > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 10/17/07, Eran Chinthaka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>> Since the topic is about jar dependencies, I'd like to comment on > >>>>>> two > >>>> aspects. > >>>> > >>>> 1. As one can see there is a huge number of dependencies we have in > >>>> Axis2 and I think we ship almost all of them with our releases. Why > >>>> should we release both xbeans and jibx with adb? My suggestion, > >>>>>> let's > >>>> ship the minimum number of jars required for a user. If he needs to > >>>>>>> use > >>>> XmlBeans, then let him download it. Same thing for JiBX. > >>>> And also it is better to see the minimum set of jars required to run > >>>>>> a > >>>> client somewhere. I raised this point couple of days before also. If > >>>>>>> you > >>>> need to do a SOAP call, you need to include more than 20-25 jars. > >>>>>>> Yes we can do that. We already pick up the databinding implementation > >>>>>>> by reflection and it is easy enough to print a message to print a > >>>>>>> readable error message for the absence of the jars. > >>>>>>> What I prefer to have is jar bundles for each databinding. Say for > >>>>>>> XMLBeans we have a xmlbeans bundle (Xbeans jar, the Xbeans-codegen > >>>>>>> module etc) and so on. > >>>>>>> > >>>> 2. Why do we need to have commons-logging? One would say well it > >>>>>> let's > >>>> you plug "any" logging module. How many of the users have really > >>>>>> used > >>>>>>> a > >>>> logging framework other than log4j? This is YAGNI for me. (you can > >>>>>>> also > >>>> see very good comments about commons-logging from our valuable > >>>>>> admirer > >>>> here http://www.bileblog.org/?p=259) > >>>>>>> Well not really. All our logging code is based on commons-logging. If > >>>>>>> we are to remove this code it would be somewhat significant effort and > >>>>>>> also what would you replace it with ? The way it is right now is the > >>>>>>> best way. What we can do is to send the default config to use > >>>>>>> java.util logging so that we do not need to send the log4j jar along. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> Just my 2 cents. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> Chinthaka > >>>> > >>>> Sanka Samaranayke wrote: > >>>>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks Ajith. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I think we should document this somewhere- we often get this > >>>>>>> question > >>>>>>>>>> and there's obviously reasons for why we have all these > >>>>>>> dependencies. > >>>>>>>>>> We need to clearly indicate which things are optional and > >>>>>> indicate > >>>>>>>>>> under what conditions they come into use. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I am not a fan of going back to the seven different distributions > >>>>>>>>>> model as that was confusing to users. Knowing the dependency > >>>>>>> reasons > >>>>>>>>>> will help embedders decide what they really need to pull in and > >>>>>>> what's > >>>>>>>>>> optional. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> One jar I didn't understand is the mex jar. Why is that around; > >>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>> should only be in the mex mar I believe. > >>>>>>>>> You need that jar if you use MexClient in your client code. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>>>> Sanka > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Sanjiva. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Ajith Ranabahu wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lawrence, > >>>>>>>>>>> Let me see whether I can make sense of some of the stuff. Others > >>>>>>> will > >>>>>>>>>>> chip in as needed and will surely holler if I make a mistake. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Axis2 Third Party Dependencies > >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>>>>>>>>> activation-1.1.jar MIME support > >>>>>>>>>>>> annogen-0.1.0.jar Annotation support > >>>>>>>>>>>> axiom-api-1.2.5.jar XML pull parsing > >>>>>>>>>>>> axiom-dom-1.2.5.jar XML pull parsing > >>>>>>>>>>>> axiom-impl-1.2.5.jar XML pull parsing > >>>>>>>>>>>> backport-util-concurrent-2.2.jar ? > >>>>>>>>>>> Thread pooling support. This feature is built in for Java 1.5 > >>>>>> and > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>> particular jar has a backport of that code to Java 1.4 > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> commons-codec-1.3.jar URL encoding? > >>>>>>>>>>>> commons-fileupload-1.1.1.jar Used for uploading new > >>>>>>> service > >>>>>>>>>>>> files in the admin > >>>>>> client? > >>>>>>>>>>> Yes - needed only when using the webapp > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> commons-httpclient-3.0.1.jar Used by the Axis2 kernel? > >>>>>>>>>>> Yes - but primarily on the client side. I believe it is needed > >>>>>> in > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> server side if asynchronous calls are to be supported. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> commons-io-1.2.jar ? > >>>>>>>>>>>> commons-logging-1.1.jar Is this related to Log4J? > >>>>>>>>>>> Well kind of. Commons logging is a common API on multiple > >>>>>> logging > >>>>>>>>>>> frameworks (log4j/java.util.logging) but allows the switching of > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> logging engine easily. All the logging code inside the Axis2 > >>>>>>> source > >>>>>>>>>>> are made using commons logging classes. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> geronimo-annotation_1.0_spec-1.1.jar More annotation support? > >>>>>>>>>>>> geronimo-jms_1.1_spec-1.1.jar JMS bindings? > >>>>>>>>>>> JMS transport really. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> httpcore-4.0-alpha5.jar Used by the Axis2 kernel? > >>>>>>>>>>>> httpcore-nio-4.0-alpha5.jar Used by the Axis2 kernel? > >>>>>>>>>>>> httpcore-niossl-4.0-alpha5.jar Used by the Axis2 kernel? > >>>>>>>>>>> The nio (non-blocking io) transport dependancies. Its an > >>>>>> improved > >>>>>>>>>>> version of the HTTP transport. My understanding is that this is > >>>>>>> used > >>>>>>>>>>> optionally (the default Axis2.xml does not point to this > >>>>>> transport > >>>>>>>>>>> AFAIK) but needs confirmation > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> jaxb-api-2.0.jar Used by the Axis2 kernel? > >>>>>>>>>>>> jaxb-impl-2.0.5.jar Used by the Axis2 kernel? > >>>>>>>>>>>> jaxb-xjc-2.0.5.jar Used by the Axis2 kernel? > >>>>>>>>>>> These were primarily for the Jaxb based code generation but now > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> JAX-WS module uses these as dependencies. In any case these are > >>>>>>> needed > >>>>>>>>>>> 1. if the user needs to generate code with Jaxb data binding > >>>>>>>>>>> 2. If he needs the JAX-WS module running (which is only on a > >>>>>> jdk > >>>>>>> 1.5 > >>>>>>>>>>> environment) > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> jaxen-1.1.1.jar XPath engine - where is > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>> used? > >>>>>>>>>>> AXIOM has a Jaxen based Xpath implementation and this jar has > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> core > >>>>>>>>>>> Jaxen classes for it > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> jettison-1.0-RC1.jar JSON StAX parser > >>>>>>>>>>>> jibx-bind-1.1.5.jar Related to JAXB? > >>>>>>>>>>>> jibx-run-1.1.5.jar Related to JAXB? > >>>>>>>>>>> Nope. Jibx is an alternate databinding. My guess is one would > >>>>>> need > >>>>>>>>>>> these only to use Jibx generated code (databinding - either on > >>>>>>> server > >>>>>>>>>>> side or client side) > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> juli-6.0.10.jar ? > >>>>>>>>>>> Juli is an alternate implementation to Java.util logging from > >>>>>>> tomcat. > >>>>>>>>>>> Here is what the tomcat site says > >>>>>>>>>>> "A limitation of JDK Logging appears to be the inability to > >>>>>> have > >>>>>>>>>>> per-web application logging, as the configuration is per-VM. As > >>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>>>> result, Tomcat will, in the default configuration, replace the > >>>>>>> default > >>>>>>>>>>> LogManager implementation with a container friendly > >>>>>> implementation > >>>>>>>>>>> called JULI, which addresses these shortcomings." > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> It seems that this one is needed only when the webapp comes to > >>>>>>> play > >>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-1.2.14.jar Logging - Is this > >>>>>> optional? > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>>>>>>> don't > >>>>>>>>>>>> always want to use Log4J > >>>>>> - > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>>>>>> example, when working > >>>>>> with > >>>>>>>>>>>> Eclipse. > >>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the default logging configuration with common-logging > >>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>> log4j. I assume we can turn it to java.util logging but most > >>>>>> folks > >>>>>>> are > >>>>>>>>>>> not in favor of it (it will reduce this jar though) > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> mail-1.4.jar MIME support? > >>>>>>>>>>> Yes > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> mex-impl-1.3.jar ? > >>>>>>>>>>> Metadata exchange implementation (WS-Mex). > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> neethi-2.0.2.jar WS Policy - Is this > >>>>>>> optional? > >>>>>>>>>>> I don't think so. This would be required both at runtime and > >>>>>>> codegen > >>>>>>>>>>> time to process policies > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> soapmonitor-1.3.jar Is this part of Axis2 or > >>>>>>> another > >>>>>>>>>>>> project? Is this just > >>>>>> used > >>>>>>> by the > >>>>>>>>>>>> Axis2 runtime or is it > >>>>>> just > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> standalone SOAP monitor > >>>>>>> tool? > >>>>>>>>>>> soapmonitor has two parts - the applet and this server side > >>>>>>> component. > >>>>>>>>>>> We may be able to make it optional (i.e. pack it with the war > >>>>>>> only) > >>>>>>>>>>>> stax-api-1.0.1.jar XML pull parsing - I > >>>>>> think > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>> should be replaced in the > >>>>>>> next > >>>>>>>>>>>> version with Geronimo's > >>>>>>>>>>>> API as Axiom has made the > >>>>>>> change > >>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure whether the API has changed. But this jar is only > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> API. > >>>>>>>>>>>> tribes-6.0.10.jar ? > >>>>>>>>>>> Clustering implementation > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> woden-1.0-incubating-M7b.jar WSDL 2.0 support > >>>>>>>>>>>> wsdl4j-1.6.2.jar WSDL 1.1 support > >>>>>>>>>>>> wstx-asl-3.2.1.jar XML pull parsing > >>>>>>>>>>>> xbean-2.2.0.jar Looks like a competitor > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>> OSGi - > >>>>>>>>>>>> where is this used? > >>>>>>>>>>> Don't let the name fool you :) This is actually the XMLBeans > >>>>>> core > >>>>>>>>>>> classes. There is a sepearate project called XBeans that has no > >>>>>>>>>>> relation to this. This one is only needed if one uses XMLBeans > >>>>>>>>>>> classes. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> xalan-2.7.0.jar XSLT - Where is this > >>>>>> used? > >>>>>>>>>>>> xercesImpl-2.8.1.jar DOM parser - Does Axis2 > >>>>>>> actually > >>>>>>>>>>>> need a DOM parser? I > >>>>>>> thought > >>>>>>>>>>>> everything was done with > >>>>>>>>>>>> pull parsing. > >>>>>>>>>>>> xml-apis-1.3.03.jar DOM parser > >>>>>>>>>>> Axis2 has some DOM based code in the code generator but the > >>>>>>> standard > >>>>>>>>>>> VM DOM impl is sufficient for that. The above jars are used > >>>>>>> primarily > >>>>>>>>>>> by the SAAJ impl which has a DOM level 3 dependency. JDK 1.4 > >>>>>>> included > >>>>>>>>>>> parser (Crimson) is DOM level 2 I believe. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> XmlSchema-1.3.2.jar XML schema support > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Lawrence > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> To me it seems that we can ship certain jars only for the > >>>>>> webapp. > >>>>>>> Also > >>>>>>>>>>> we have been discussing three types of distros, minimal, > >>>>>> standard > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> full which will include jars in various degrees but it seemed a > >>>>>>> bit > >>>>>>>>>>> confusing at that time for the users (this was actually done in > >>>>>>> 1.0 > >>>>>>>>>>> release). May be it is time to restart these discussions > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Ajith Ranabahu > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Reading, after a certain age, diverts the mind too much from its > >>>>>> creative pursuits. Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain > >>>>>> too little falls into lazy habits of thinking - Albert Einstein > >>>>>> > >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > >> > - --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFHJJpSjON2uBzUhh8RAmyxAKCOidCQhOKVvmOHFsf3Po58dmnqwQCeK7ZQ > I3bk1wnUzquG7uW8XWCKwXs= > =GZ4p > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
