Please see http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=axis-user&m=113051047826397&w=2
thanks, dims On 10/28/05, A B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Fair enough. I agree that the expertize on the open source side is superior > and is probably better for more hardcore software deployments such as large > networks/web sites, mission critical applications etc. etc. But for small to > medium business apps it has been my experience that if you really need to > get to the bottom of an issue it is better to have someone accountable who > wants your business. You have the power to withhold payment or drop the > vendor entirely if their support doesn't solve your issues. > > However I will concede and retract my statement about open source in general > and re-direct specifically to axis. > > Cheers, > > Jeff. > > Paul Barry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I will agree that on this mailing list, so far, the few questions that > I have asked have gone unresponded to (granted I just asked my last > question yesterday). But in general, I have found open source support > to be superior to commerce support. I haven't worked with Microsoft > specifically, but other support I get from commercial products is > usually an email address or phone number that goes to a general help > desk. This people typically have less knowledge about the product > than I do. They can't conceptualize the problem I am having and they > usually just run through a list of typical problems and solutions. > Open source projects, when they have a good community surrounding > them, are just the opposite. You are getting support directly from > the experts. As long as you do your work to isolate the problem and > report the information about the prob lem, most of the time you will > get a solution to your problem. > > So I guess my point is I can't really speak to this community yet, > because I haven't been participating in it yet for long enough, but > just because you have had a bad experience with this oepn source > project, don't say that commercial support is better than open source. > If you want to attack the axis community specifically, fine, but > there are a lot of open source projects that have communities that > offer a lot of help. You are making broad generalizations about M$ > vs. open source based on your experience with one open source > community. > > On 10/28/05, McPhail, Jeff wrote: > > I must say that I'm also extremely disappointed with Axis and > > this usergroup. I didn't like the fact that you have to sign up to > > receive ALL emails in order to participate -- I've never seen this > > before. So because I was in a jam and needed and answer, I jo ined and > > asked my question. I posted the question 5 times in different forms over > > a 3 week period and didn't get one response -- nothing. > > So I then tried to unsubscribe and it didn't work. I followed > > the instructions in the auto-reply given for troubleshooting > > unsubscribes and that didn't work. So I emailed the administrator (his > > email was in the autoreply, but of course nowhere to be found on the > > axis site) and got a reply about 3 days later telling me that the reason > > that my unsubscribe didn't work was because my email address was not on > > the list. So I responded assuring him that I am still on the list and am > > getting hundreds of messages a week (to my work email mind you) and I > > added a copy of the email header of one of the list emails I received > > with my email return path etc. -- I got no response. Also since the > > sender in the list emails is not [email protected] but in stead the > > > individual senders address, I can't even mark them as spam to filter > > them (not a very smart setup, not to mention the privacy issues). This > > is becoming a real nuisance and it appears that I have no recourse. I've > > tried emailing the general Apache help and got no response, and of > > course there is not a single phone number on the either the apache or > > axis web sites. > > This is bush league support. No wonder so many people prefer to > > use Microsoft products. Maybe not all of their solutions are optimal > > (although I'm not sure how true this is anymore) but everything is much > > easier to implement, and interconnect with different technologies under > > the Microsoft umbrella. And when you have a problem, the support sites > > available are much superior -- I've never posted an issue about a > > microsoft product where I didn't have it solved within a day or two. The > > open source concept is great when you're a student and can't afford to > > fork over a grand or two for software, but when you use it for business > > apps and factor in the time to implement and the extra tens of thousands > > of dollars in man hours per year to fix bugs, Microsoft is a much > > cheaper solution. > > > > I would be extremely grateful to anyone to can tell me how to get off of > > this list. Thank you. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Jeff. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Paul Grillo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 10:15 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Cc: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: I give up > > > > I would like to add that, to a large extent, I feel Kurt's pain. We > > used Axis 1.2 to deploy a single SOAP service that was required of us by > > one of our major partners that dictated a .NET interface complete with > > SOAP element si gnature, timestamp, and encryption. I will say that we > > got this working very nicely. I am appreciative of the work. I will > > say that my interactions with the WSS4J folks was extremely helpful, and > > I thank them very much. So, that is a great success and I thank > > everybody that contributed. > > > > Now as I look to go a little more mainstream within the rest of our > > products at our company, I began taking a closer look at Axis, including > > java data binding dependencies which are critical because of the various > > products our company produces that will need to adhere to the bound XSD > > Objects. I need to insure that I have some independence when choosing > > this piece of the puzzle. > > > > I have looked at AXIS and AXIS2. I have had a few questions related to > > this. My major frustration is as my inability to get answers to what I > > thought were fairly simple questions. Perhaps they are either not< BR>> > simple, or thought as stupid. I'm not talking just about zeroing in on > > > a bug and submitting it to JIRA, I'm talking about some input about even > > "whether" something is doable, not just how. > > > > Now before anybody comes down on me, I am fully aware of where my > > expectations should be vis a vis open source software, mailing lists, > > etc. I do not feel that I am owed anything when using this software. I > > have found, however, a little more help in other areas when using open > > source. I have, in fact, solved a myriad of problems on my own within > > Axis. I find myself in the bowels of the code trying to figure out what > > it's doing etc, so to solve my own problems. I do, however, have to > > factor in the time spent to research and solve these issues. > > > > I have posted several questions and generally do not even get a > > response, or an I don't know, though I suppose the lack of a response is > > an I don't know. So, it's gotten to the point where I don't bother. In > > terms of Axis, I feel that I need to go in another direction simply > > because of my inability to get a straight answer around data binding > > support (for example) now or in the future in Axis or in Axis2. I have > > asked what I believe is a simple question, whether a particular class > > that seems like it should be thread safe is so (just another example). > > Generally speaking if somebody asked me about most any class I've > > designed and built as to whether it was designed that way, I could come > > up with an answer. Yet, no answer. Yes, yes, if a class is not > > advertised as Threadsafe, consider that it isn't. Lack of > > documentation, however, doesn't confirm the default assumption. > > > > But my bigger concern is the unknown. I don't have confidence that when > > and if I run into future problems I can find the resources or help to > > get around problems. Perhaps my expectations are much too high. Of > > other products that we use and have had very good success is Hibernate, > > Castor, WSS4J (as mentioned above). I just don't get a comfortable > > feeling when working with Axis ... > > > > Okay, I'm big enough for somebody to tell me to not let the door hit me > > in the you know where as I leave. Again, I'm not angry, I'm not even > > largely disappointed. I've just been forced to make a decision based on > > what is... > > > > Perhaps in awhile I'll return to see what's up with Axis2. > > > > -paul > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:07 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Cc: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: I give up > > > > Kurt, > > > > Looking at your postings, i don't see much from you in terms of engaging > > the user or developer community to ask for help. > > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=axis-dev&w=2&r=1&s=olsen&q=b > > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=axis-user&w=2&r=1&s=olsen&q=b > > > > Your specific email to Tom > > > (http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=axis-dev&m=112801670512125&w=2)...i > > have no clue how to help. i did reply back to a prev mail on that thread > > > (http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=axis-dev&m=112692662128194&w=2) > > > > If you have a problem with Macromedia or eBay folks, We can't really > > help. If you have a problem with latest releases of Axis, we can help if > > you add JIRA bugs (and chase us!) on the axis-dev@ list. If you need > > production/development support, there are avenues for that as well. > > > > Am sorry you had a bad experience, thanks for the feedback. > > > > -- dims > > > > On 10/27/05, Kurt Olsen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Folks, I hate to say it but I had to ditch axis. Way too difficult. > > And we > > > won't be using it in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > Our application has approx 30 vendors we communicate with using SOAP. > > > > > > Approx 25 of them are implemented by simply creating strings and > > firing them > > > off, then parsing out the reply. > > > > > > Primitive but fairly easy to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > The other 5 used axis. At the moment we're using the ColdFusion > > server. When > > > we upgraded to java 5 and coldfusion mx7 our axis based connectors > > broke. > > > > > > It took approximately 2 weeks to diagnose and 'solve' the problem. > > Axis used > > > commons-logging, and commons-logging broke. That required fairly > > > > > > ; major surgery to the coldfusion classpath. Pieces of commons-logging > > > we're > > > coming in off of different classloaders. > > > > > > > > > > > > So technically speaking, commons-logging broke - not axis > > but.....since axis > > > brought the flaw to life, and has given us grief (probably the CF > > > integration) in the past, it is axis that got the bad reputation due > > to the > > > fact that it was at the top of the food chain. The two weeks solving > > this > > > problem wasn't totally wasted because it exposed a fairly large flaw > > in the > > > overall architecture. > > > > > > > > > > > > After getting the existing connectors to work again, I had to turn my > > > attention to the next connector in the pipeline - eBay via Soap.... > > > > > > Only one problem - eBay's sdk is written against java 1.4 and axis 1.1 > > - > > > while we upgraded to java 5 and axis 1.2 > > > > > > After another week of trying various 'workarounds' etc I was forced to > > give > > > up and will have to communicate with eBay using the "create strings" > > > technique. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bottom line is that the overall cost of the 'SOAP' system and it's > > co-horts > > > in crime is un-managable given our quarterly release cycle. > > > > > > I'm disappointed that after all that effor to modernize - the goal > > really > > > wasn't accomplished. > > > > > > > > > > > > I fully understand the various issues involved, most of which aren't > > really > > > axis's fault but - any way I slice it this entire exercise felt > > exactly like > > > trying to use the J2EE 1.3/1.4 ejb specifications. Big, confusing, > > hard to > > > use etc.....And I predict will eventua lly be abandoned (or at least > > buried > > > beneath a convienence API). > > > > > > > > > > > > This is just one co's experience of course but I submit to you that as > > you > > > continue your development you might want to consider the overall > > 'cost' that > > > SOAP and it's tools are exacting on the community. This simply has to > > get > > > easier because as it stands both the other developers (who watched > > over my > > > shoulder so to speak) and myself have simply given up on an 'easy' > > tool fix. > > > Our experience is that SOAP is a diaster and costing virtually > > everyone in > > > corporate programming a lot of money and lost sleep.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for listening, and please remember that I'm taking the time to > > write > > > this not to complain (well, maybe a little) but to provide feedback > > ; from the > > > field. > > > > > > > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > Kurt Olsen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/ > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************************** > > This message, including any attachments, contains confidential information > intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If > you are not the intended recipient, please contact sender immediately by > reply e-mail and destroy all copies. You are hereby notified that any > disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any > action based on it, is strictly prohibited. > > TIAA-CREF > > > ************************************************************** > > > > > > > ________________________________ > Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. > > -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
