Hi Cheri and Ricardo, My story is similar to Cheri's. My parents both worked so I spend a great deal of time with my grandparents who immigrated the early 1900's. My grandfather came via Santa Maria, Bermuda, back to Santa Maria for his bride, and then to California. He and his brother kept the name de Figueiredo. My grandparents didn't speak or write when they came, but at least one of their father's did, at least enough to be able to spell their name correctly (I believe it was probably my grandmother). They came to California because she had an uncle who lived there and got my grandfather a job. He spoke better English because he was in the work force, but my grandmother went to school to become a citizen. I remember helping my grandfather study for his driving test. Since he could not read or write they just tested his ability to know the traffic signs. Somehow he always passed! I have seen records of my great uncle listed as D Figueiredo instead of de Figueiredo and some listed correctly. To say the least the name is often mispelled. My grandparents spoke in English to me, but I am sure they spoke Portuguese to each other. When I first got interested in genealogy and trying to learn a little Portuguese I felt much like Cheri's father (it was familar). I took Spanish in high school but never was enamored with the language. I wonder how it would have been if Portuguese had been offered. My Bermuda cousins all dropped the de Figueiredo and used Soares which has been quite a problem for me, but it doesn't seem to matter to them. They also Anglicized all of the names. José became Joe, João became John etc. My grandfather did use Ben instead of Bernardino and I found out my grandmother used Bertha sometimes, however I never knew her as anything but Bernardina. The Bermudians also use St. Michael, St. Mary, and St. George. So... it just depends on your relatives. I guess my point is there is no right and wrong. Just as language changes so do names. I try to keep the names as Portuguese names and then write notes as to the changes that obviously occurred. Tish
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Ricardo Chaves <chave...@gmail.com> wrote: > There you go Chery, you and your sister were some of the lucky ones! > That's why I said "Some families". Also in your longer paragraph you > reinforce what I said as another possible reason "LIFE" reasons! That > example of moms in the kitchen and "cupid" lol, is perfectly > understandable. Don't forget also the ones who somehow faced their hard > life in Azores 200 years ago as something to forget and so they did. > > The De/Da/Do here normally are associated to surnames, da Ponte, de > Andrade or d'Andrade, etc. But you can also see them in Maria da Conceição, > Olinda de Jesus, etc. These make more sense connecting names than surnames, > but then, and again, its all part of our in-heritage and the way things > were 100, 200, 300 and more years ago. Its changing nowadays Cheri. I > myself did it with my son. No DOS OR DAS for you buddy, simple short name > but still maintain his mom and dad last names. > > About West coast and East coast, by the way, RI is where the majority of > my CHAVES live, I don't know. What I know is that if we are talking about > genealogy, as you just said, names have to be Portuguese or you wont be > able to go anywhere with it! If not, Azorean descendents want to > "Americanize" their names or their origin country names, fine by me! > > Also, I have proof of this, not everyone, specially individuals like me, > who live here, my age, interested in deep roots research, my family is > huge, and as far as I know, there are only a couple with some curiosity and > none really into it. And when you really dedicate some passion into this > you can go far, really far. You can also be considered crazy. > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Cheri Mello <gfsche...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Ricardo C, >> >> You made lots of points. Let me try to address some of them. >> >> Why does "de Souza" become "DeSouza?" Why did the trumpet in high school >> band have the last name "Vandewater?" I'm sure it was "van de Water." All >> I know is that in school, the computer programs that creates the roll >> sheets capitalize the first letter of the last name, because everyone knows >> that your name is capitalized. As to the removal of the space, maybe it >> doesn't accept spaces? I've even have kids with hyphenated names and it >> wouldn't take the hyphen. I don't know if the programmers do the same >> thing in the courts and the Department of Motor Vehicle registration, but >> they may. I'm guessing it just probably comes from an egocentric view >> going back when people in America were named Jones, Smith, and Brown, >> before we had so many immigrants. However, I can write up list for the >> 100% Portuguese band director and I will write José de Sousa and he will >> type up and print out José DeSousa. However, he is American born and does >> not study genealogy. And you can't explain surnames and presurnames to >> him. He already knows everything! One of those types! >> >> As for 2nd, 3rd, etc generations in America, I have a theory. I'm 3rd >> generation. So is my sister. Growing up, my dad told us about being part >> Portuguese, that our ancestors (his grandma) was from the Azores and Sao >> Miguel. He brought out the encyclopedia and showed us. I think he told us >> Vila Franca, but I'm not sure. Today, I believe my sister knows the Azores >> and I think she knows Sao Miguel. She has no clue where on Sao Miguel and >> probably cannot pick out Sao Miguel on a map. Yet we were both shown on a >> map and were both there when my dad told us. Her interest level wasn't >> there, even though we both knew our immigrant ancestor. >> >> As for spoken Portuguese, I have a theory on that too. I speak just a >> little. I call it travel talk. I probably speak like a 3 year old. My >> sister speaks none. Neither does my dad. The only reason I speak a little >> is because I wanted to learn so I bought a book and tape/CD and tried to >> learn myself. My dad did not teach me. My dad did not speak. He will >> come to the hall and says that Portuguese sounds familiar, but he doesn't >> know what they are saying. He knows a couple of words. So why does my dad >> (2nd generation) not speak? Because his dad (1st generation) didn't speak >> either or quit speaking it. Why? Got to go back to the history books for >> that. People who immigrated before WWI and went through it in America, >> came out on the winning side, waving the U.S. flag. We have a saying, >> "When in Rome, do as the Romans do," so in America, they did as the >> Americans did. Including school, which was something many immigrants did >> not have in the Azores. Back in the 19teens (through the 1960s, I >> believe), there was no emphasis on bilingual education. Everything was in >> English. So although my grandfather and his brothers learned Portuguese >> first, they went to school in America and learned English. They went home >> and their parents addressed them in Portuguese and they answered in English >> (this still happens today, with any kid..the parents address them in the >> native language, whether its Portuguese, Korean, Farsi, and the kid answers >> in English). I know you are saying, "ok fine, but the 1st generation knew >> Portuguese so after his education years, what happened?" I never heard my >> grandfather speak any Portuguese at all. But I suppose that if someone >> dropped him off in the Azores, he would have started to speak again after a >> couple of weeks. So why didn't he try to hang onto it and speak some to my >> dad? Because of Cupid! My immigrant ancestors had 4 boys and all 4 of >> them married American, English-speaking women. Back then (1930s) the women >> stayed home, cooked, and took care of the children. The moms spoke only >> English. So my dad and his cousins did not learn Portuguese. I really >> think that the language and culture get passed down through the moms due to >> child rearing. Yet my dad and his cousins were left with their Portuguese >> grandparents in the summers during WWII. This is why my dad says >> Portuguese is familiar to him. His grandparents would speak Portuguese to >> each other (especially if they didn't want the grandkids to know) but not >> so much to the grandkids. My dad knew the words, "leite d'vaca" as his >> grandmother would give him money and send him off to the store to get some >> milk. The youngest grandchild (maybe 2 or 3 years old) did wind up >> speaking some Portuguese initially. His parents were getting a divorce and >> he was in the house with his Portuguese grandmother for a few months >> (again, during WWII, probably in the summer). After the divorce was >> settled (I'm guessing it was really the summer), he went back to American >> mom who only spoke English and the Portuguese wasn't reinforced. And I >> also look at the immigrant ancestor, Gloria. She was very, very >> pro-education. She didn't have access to education in the Azores. She >> barely could write her own name. My dad had to read the newspaper to her >> (in English). He had to write home during the summer. She even told her >> niece that education was important and to learn as much as you can and get >> as much out of it as you can. The only thing that was taught in American >> schools was English, because the emphasis on bilingual education hadn't >> been invented yet. >> >> The De/Da/Do again that you mentioned to Doug: They are kind of black >> and white here. You have a first name and a last name. Is de/da/do part of >> your first name? No. Then it must be part of your last name and that's >> how it becomes part of a last name here. There is nothing for prefixes in >> the surnames. >> >> I hear St. Michael, St. Mary, and St. George. Yet, I never hear anyone >> say that they are from Third! And no one says that here in California. >> When I'm with the Portuguese community in California, they say Sao Miguel, >> Santa Maria, Sao Jorge, Terceira. When I go to Massachusetts or Rhode >> Island, I'm more apt to hear the St. ____ from people there. Don't know >> why they translate the saint's names on that side of the U.S. >> >> Spelling....the problem with that is yes, it needs to be done correctly >> because when I do a search in the archives (or anyone does a search) they >> can't find the post that they want. They won't find the post either if >> everyone insists on using codes the whole time too (PG for Ponta Garca). I >> always type out the name in full once, followed by the abbreviation or >> code. That way, the reader knows exactly what I'm referring to and a >> search of the archive will pull up a post from Ponta Garca. A search of PG >> will turn up a bunch of junk that is not meaningful. >> >> >> Cheri Mello >> Listowner, Azores-Gen >> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das >> Tainhas, Achada >> >> -- >> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail >> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the >> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my >> membership." >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Azores Genealogy" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. >> > > > > -- > Ricardo Chaves > > -- > For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail > (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the > right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my > membership." > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Azores Genealogy" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. > -- sfig Researching Island: Santa Maria Freguesia: Santa Barbara -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. 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