On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:03 PM, fred burlingame <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello Randall: > > Thanks for your comments. > > I guess I am a little confused. > > a. I thought that the earliest vocalization code (nikkud) that we have, > equals the 1,000 a.d., masoretic text ("MT"); and that text encodes > vocalization for this verse's use of באש as "va-esh," twice. > > b. Then, the pronunciation "ba-esh" is encoded the third time because of the > disjunctive לא ? appearing in the preceding few words?
The 'disjunctive' is the "tvir" accent mark on "yavo" which marks the phrase boundaries. the third ba-esh begins a new phrase and thus is a hard 'b' according to the bgdkpt alterations. If a reader chose to read that third "lo yavo va-esh" as one phrase then the bet would have been soft since it followed a vowel. The MT, of course, did not choose that. braxot Randall Buth > c. I don't see how we know the earlier (than 1,000 a.d.) pronunciation for > באש customarily becomes "ba-esh?" > > Perhaps i am simply mis-reading your post. > > regards, > > fred burlingame > > > On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Randall Buth <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> comments follow this of Kevin: >> >> Kevin: >> The lentition of the letters bgdkpt is usually placed much later. Many >> think it came in after the Exile. So the answer is no, no C12th BCE >> Hebrew speaker would have known of this. But after it did become part >> of Hebrew, yes, ordinary speakers would notice. Anyone who used the >> wrong variant would have sounded either 'wrong' or 'foreign', just like >> in languages today that have the same phenomenon. >> >> This brings us back to a point often made: the Hebrew we have in the >> Masoretic texts represents the way Hebrew was chanted in the second half >> of the 1st millennium CE. As part of the tradition of Hebrew, it is >> part of the evidence of how Hebrew was spoken in the 1st or 2nd >> millennium BCE, but it is not, nor was it meant to be, a trascription of >> how Moses, David or Ezra pronounced Hebrew. >> >> Kevin Riley >> >> On 5/11/2010 1:27 AM, fred burlingame wrote: >> > that make life fun ... >> > >> > and so, in numbers 31:23 we have three instances of the hebrew word באש >> > occurring, but we have pronunciation differing; "ya-vo ... va-esh;" >> > "ta-ah-vi-ru ... va-esh;" and "ya-vo ... ba-esh." >> > >> > Is there some rule or reason to "dagesh" for "ba-esh" only once of three >> > instances? >> > >> > Would the average 12th century b.c., shepherd or farmer practiced (or >> > even >> > known about) such subtle differences in his every day communications? >> > >> > Thanks for your help. >> > >> > regards, >> > >> > fred burlingame >> >> >> Kevin is correct in general about bgdkpt and potentially sounding >> foreigh or strange in not following the patterns. >> >> However, the example of Num 33.23 is special and relates to how >> fast one is speaking. Normally, following a vowel the bet in 'with fire' >> would have been pronounced as a fricative, (probably like the bilabial >> 'b' in Habana [Havana in English] and later as a labiodental 'v)'. >> However, if a speaker paused for half a moment the >> bet was considered to be beginning a phrase and would be pronounced >> as a stop 'b'. In the MT of Num 33, the third example is accented with >> a 'disjunctive' accent before the bet. Thus, the pause would be heard >> and reinforced by the stop 'b' continuing a new phrase unit. >> >> This illustrates the sub-phonemic status of the b/v alteration in >> biblical/ >> post-biblical times. If a speaker spoke the verse above quickly enough >> then all of the bet's would have been fricatives. >> >> Randall Buth Randall Buth, PhD www.biblicalulpan.org [email protected] Biblical Language Center Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life _______________________________________________ b-hebrew mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
