Thanks George for remainding You wrote: If you read some Ugaritic literature, you will see clearly that El is used as a proper noun. This is confirmed by the lack of a definite article in most cases.
It seems to me that you found El written in Ugaritic literature with a definite article though very a vew, is it correct? Can you tell me if El was found in construct position e.g with a pronoun such as my EL, or El of .....? Kristian --- On Wed, 17/8/11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: b-hebrew Digest, Vol 104, Issue 12 To: [email protected] Received: Wednesday, 17 August, 2011, 11:00 AM Send b-hebrew mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of b-hebrew digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: b-hebrew Digest, Vol 104, Issue 7 (Nir cohen - Prof. Mat.) 2. Re: Participle or Qatal? (K Randolph) 3. Re: Genesis 14:18-22 (K Randolph) 4. Re: Genesis 14:18-22 (George Athas) 5. Re: El: Common or Proper Noun? (Chavoux Luyt) 6. Re: El: Common or Proper Noun? (George Athas) 7. Re: El: Common or Proper Noun? (Yigal Levin) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:14:38 -0200 From: "Nir cohen - Prof. Mat." <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] b-hebrew Digest, Vol 104, Issue 7 To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 karl, the talmudic, medieval and modern hebrew dialects are all tense-based, and so is aramaic. it would be more natural to assume an aramaic influence on modern hebrew, as opposed to a greek one. in fact, aramaic and talmudic hebrew admit a one-to-one correspondence in the phoneme, lexical, grammatical and syntax levels, to the extent that i would call talmudic hebrew a word-for-word transliterated aramaic dialect (you can check it, for example, on the book of daniel). also, the tensing using past, present, future and auxiliary verb hyh/hwh are basically equal. this cannot be said about hebrew (or aramaic) vs any european language. nir cohen >>> Hence, looking not at the forms but at the actions that underlie the forms, I see the grammar of modern Israeli Hebrew to be a European language grammar, very different from the grammar of Biblical Hebrew. That is why I consider modern Israeli Hebrew to be a modern European language. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 00:55:42 -0700 From: K Randolph <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Participle or Qatal? To: B-Hebrew <[email protected]> Message-ID: <caaeju0vnhx-9py9ydka4mjx9nfsjncx7o2jn+t8ilnrrpee...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Now for a follow up verse. As I read Judges 6:29, there are two verbs ??? (%H which I found myself reading as participles. This time, the Masoretes pointed these verbs as Qatal, so this time I disagreed with the Masoretes. As in the previous example in this thread, I read the conjugation as referring to the actor more than the action, hence the participle. Then the next verse has the verbs and ??? NTC and ??? KRT which I read as Qatal verbs because here I see the emphasis on the action more than on the actor. Karl W. Randolph. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 08:14:38 -0700 From: K Randolph <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Genesis 14:18-22 To: Donald Vance <[email protected]> Cc: B-Hebrew <[email protected]> Message-ID: <CAAEjU0si4DSx13yEU7c=9_t9o8rhczmcdm7y_d4sntu4_j3...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Donald: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Donald Vance <[email protected]> wrote: > No, there is NOT every expectation that Melchizedek worshipped the same God > as Abram. Why would he? Why not? > Where would he have heard of YHWH? Abram was not the first worshipper of YHWH, according to Genesis. And evidently, he was not the only one at his time either. > Why did Abram need to clarify it? Context! Who was his audience for that clarification? > What evidence is there that anyone in Canaan worshipped YHWH without > interacting with Abraham or one of his descendants? The text says El Elyon, > a Canaanite deity. Read the context. This is the same sort of thing that missionaries deal with, using the generic term ?god? but then clarify that it is not one of their gods by adding an explanation. An example is the Chinese ?? the most high god, and how he is the true God. In this case, the explanation is: ?the one who possesses heavens and earth? in contrast to the Canaanite gods which were considered local only. > Melchizedek lives in a Canaanite city. So? Does that automatically make him a worshipper of Canaanite deities? > There is no indication that he worships YHWH. Yes there is, from Abram?s actions and acceptance of his priesthood. > Abraham teaches the group that YHWH is El Elyon. > What group? The text mentions Sodom?s king only. > > Jethro is not depicted as worshipping YHWH (Ex 18:11 makes no sense if he > is already worshipping YHWH); Yes it does. The case hinges on the meaning of ??? (TH: it does not only mean ?at this time? or ?starting from this time forward?, rather it has a broader meaning that does not rule out prior conditions. Examples include Genesis 11:6, 22:12 (God knew that before, but gave the test to strengthen Abraham?s faith), 24:49, 26:29, 45:8, etc. > Caleb certainly interacted and associated with the descendants of Abraham! > Did he join Israel because of a shared faith, or was he a convert? The text doesn?t say. > > > Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. > Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature > Oral Roberts University > [email protected] > [email protected] > > Whether we agree with the text or not is immaterial. What counts is whether or not we understand the text correctly within its linguistic, literary and cultural contexts. We should also recognize where the text is silent and not try to ?fill in the blanks?. Melchizedek mentioned not merely ?most high God? but ?most high God possessor of heavens and earth? in a historical context as recounted in Genesis where YHWH had been known for prior centuries. ?Possessor of heavens and earth? indicates a universal God and distinguishes him from the localized Canaanite most high gods. Abram?s acceptance of Melchizedek?s priesthood indicates that he, and he would know better than we millennia later, considered that ?most high God possessor of heavens and earth? was just a different way of referring to YHWH. All these clues taken together gives us every expectation that Melchizedek worshipped the same God as Abram. Karl W. Randolph. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 02:42:36 +0000 From: George Athas <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Genesis 14:18-22 To: B-Hebrew <[email protected]> Message-ID: <ca715648.fcac%[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Don appears to be reading Gen 14 against a henotheistic background in which cities and/or countries were associated with the worship of a particular deity. And a traveller to those cities/countries had to respect in some way the deity of that city/country. Don's right that there is NOT every expectation that Melchizedek worshiped the same God as Abram. It's possible, but we should not expect it to be the case, especially given what we know about El Elyon as a Canaanite deity. GEORGE ATHAS Director of Postgraduate Studies, Moore Theological College (moore.edu.au) Sydney, Australia ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 12:17:33 +0200 From: Chavoux Luyt <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] El: Common or Proper Noun? To: [email protected] Message-ID: <capgeeieo-t-hpte4zfy-zwlfyzryhuxu4dom+fc5g6jwe-j...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi all > From:?George Athas <[email protected]> > Kristian, I'm not sure your analogy works here. The noun ?? is indeed common, > but it often functions as a proper noun. > Certainly that's the case outside the biblical literature. I know that my original question was about the possible differences between the Hebrew usage and the pagan usage. I would also like to know, however, (if this is not too far outside the scope of this group) how certain archaeologists can be that "El" on its own was used as a proper noun/name and not simply as a generic common noun? I framed my original question to address the Hebrew usage only to try and keep on topic for the list. <snip > From:?Yigal Levin <[email protected]> > A similar case is "Baal", which is both a common noun meaning "lord/master" > and a proper name of a deity, known from both > the Bible and a wide range of ANE inscriptions. And here you seem to have a fairly convincing argument that it is very possible that "El" could function as both common and proper name. Is it possible, however, that "Baal" on its own (i.e. not compound names such as Baal-berit etc.) was also used only as a common name and that part of the prophetic dispute was that the baalim could not be considered equal to the (one) "El". Regards Chavoux Luyt ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 10:22:32 +0000 From: George Athas <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] El: Common or Proper Noun? To: B-Hebrew <[email protected]> Message-ID: <ca71d346.fd26%[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you read some Ugaritic literature, you will see clearly that El is used as a proper noun. This is confirmed by the lack of a definite article in most cases. GEORGE ATHAS Director of Postgraduate Studies, Moore Theological College (moore.edu.au) Sydney, Australia ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 14:23:18 +0300 From: Yigal Levin <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] El: Common or Proper Noun? To: b-hebrew <[email protected]> Message-ID: <000301cc5cd0$107c8250$317586f0$%[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii And the same for Baal. Yigal Levin -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Athas Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 1:23 PM To: B-Hebrew Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] El: Common or Proper Noun? If you read some Ugaritic literature, you will see clearly that El is used as a proper noun. This is confirmed by the lack of a definite article in most cases. GEORGE ATHAS Director of Postgraduate Studies, Moore Theological College (moore.edu.au) Sydney, Australia _______________________________________________ b-hebrew mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ b-hebrew mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew End of b-hebrew Digest, Vol 104, Issue 12 ***************************************** _______________________________________________ b-hebrew mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
