On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:33:46 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > G: So if the Quran has a sentence in it which contradicts satatments in > the Bahai faith then that is a problem (for the Bahai faith). For the > Bahai faith, everything in the Quran is true, so whatever > interpretation the verses have, they have to be consistent with the > Bahai faith. > > J: That's a good point. Here is a quote from Baha'u'llah in the > Kitab-i-Iqan (p. 8) suggesting an alternative conclusion from the one you've > drawn. The paragraph below is a commentary about the Prophet Noah's failed > promises about His people's victory that were supposed to take place at a > specified point in time.
Gilberto: Which failed promises? I don't recall any such failures of Noah being mentioned in either the Bible or the Quran. [3.161] And it is not attributable to a prophet that he should act unfaithfully; and he who acts unfaithfully shall bring that in respect of which he has acted unfaithfully on the day of resurrection; then shall every soul be paid back fully what it has earned, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly. 7:53 [...] Indeed the apostles of our Lord brought the truth; [...] [19.41] And mention Ibrahim in the Book; surely he was a truthful man, a prophet [19.54] And mention Ismail in the Book; surely he was truthful in (his) promise, and he was an apostle, a prophet. [19.56] And mention Idris in the Book; surely he was a truthful man, a prophet, Yes, the Quran certainly says that people would be tested but there is no indication whatsoever that people would be tested by being sent prophets who don't bring the truth. If an alleged prophet actually makes promises and they don't come to pass, that's a good indication that the person is a false prophet. Although when I was reading about the concept of prophet in Judaism recently, I found that for some, this only applies when good things come to pass. If a prophet brings a warning (like in the book of Jonah) but the people repent and God "changes his mind" then that's ok. But if the prophet makes a good promise but it doesn't happen then they are fake. > > G: If there are clear prophecies in the Quran, and we could agree to how > to interpret those prophecies, and Bahaullah failed to meet those > prophecies, then that would be a serious contradiction at the > foundation of the Bahai faith. Not just a test, but a logical problem. > > J: As fallible human beings with limited knowledge, we are incapable of > determining one fool-proof methodology for the interpretation of prophecies. > Therefore, if Baha'u'llah fails to meet our pre-defined criteria, how can > we be sure that we had it right and He was wrong, or that He really did > fulfill them and we interpreted it incorrectly? But then the real problem is how do you know Bahaullah is real unless you apply objective criteria? > ---- > > G: Ok. But when it comes to interpreting equality of women in the Quran, > I've noticed several Bahais not engage in the same kind of effort. > Instead of saying how the Quran can be read on multiple levels they > would rather have an insulting view of God, and believe that God > endorsed wife-beating, and so then it becomes an excuse to get rid of > Islam and replace it with something else. > > J: This is a good point, so let me add this: > > "Know thou of a truth: He that biddeth men be just and himself committeth > iniquity is not of Me, even though he bear My name." -Baha'u'llah Hidden > Words Arabic 28 Gilberto: Could you explain how you think the above passage from Bahaullah applies? > > ---- > > G: When if you didn't want to have an insulting view of God, another > approach would be to point out that just as "seal" might mean > something other than "last" in Arabic, that "daraba" can mean many > other things besides "beat". It's even used in multiple ways in the > Quran itself. > > G: the word "daraba" which some people translate as "beat" actually > appears elsewhere in the Quran itself with other meanings. > > To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273 > To set up: 43:58; 57:13 > To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; > 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11 > To take away, to ignore: 43:5 > To condemn: 2:61 > To seal, to draw over: 18:11 > To cover: 24:31 > To explain: 13:17 > > > J: Highly enlightening. Let us see if we can pull up some of Abdu'l-Baha's > and Baha'u'llah's writings regarding the principle of equality with the > above in mind. Gilberto: I'm not sure it matters what the Bahai writings say here. What I'm trying to get across is that the Quran isn't as unjust as Bahais seem to think. That Bahais seem to be reading it uncharitably even though they say they believe it comes from God. PEace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
