On 1/6/07, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Were not going to cover the same ground again and again. You have been
told this is not the Baha'i teachings and yet you keep insisting we
believe something we don't. I'm rejecting this as inflamatory.
I'm not trying to be inflammatory and I'm not trying to tell you what
you believe. I'm just trying to get certain issues clarified and I
would like to see them supported with textual evidence.
On 5 Jan 2007 14:36:48 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> wow, there is something weird with the group... i didn't get this
> response in my in-box and only saw it when i checked the group through
> a browser.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > I'm not trying to distort the teachings but I've never read anything
> > > which puts limits on how hikmat can be used.
> > Dear Gilberto,
> > I've never seen a statement in puts limits on how taqiyyih or
> > dissimulation can be used in Islam either, but given the fact that in
> > 1400 years of Islamic history no one has used it that way, I think it
> > is pretty save to assume that they won't.
> Pretty much every time I've seen taqiyyah discussed it was clear that
> it has limits. Even calling it a form of dissimulation is putting a
> definite limit on it. But the Bahai concept of hikmat is a lot more
> general and loosely definied. For example, pre-publication review is a
> form of hikmat but it defenitely isn't a form a dissimulation.
> [Conditionally] Allowing bigamy would be another example of hikmat which isn't
> necessarily dissimulation.
> > But there are plenty of passages
> > that absolutely rule out the use of violence in defense of our
> > religion. Do you really want me to post them all?
> > I mean, there
> > > are passages in the writings which celebrate free expression and
> > > independent thought and yet by way of "hikmat" there is a
> > > pre-publication censorship policy.
> > And the exception is in writing as well. Find the exception to the
> > prohibition against jihad in the Writings.
> according to your paper:
> Shoghi Effendi, while affirming "that at the very root of the Cause
> lies the principle of the undoubted right of the individual to
> self-expression," found it necessary to insist that Baha'is temporarily
> submit their work to censors before publication as a provisional
> measure "designed to guard and protect the Cause in its present state
> of infancy and growth until the day when this tender and precious plant
> shall have sufficiently grown to be able to withstand the unwisdom of
> its friends and the attacks of its enemies."
>
> [end quote]
>
> So this gives an example of how even if a principle is "at the very
> root of the Cause" it might be suspended in order to "guard and protect
> the Cause" from the "attacks of its enemies". This suggests that to
> "guard and protect the Cause" is of an incredibly high value. And makes
> it plausible that some other principle might be suspended for the same
> reason.
In fact, I looked back at your paper again and it seemed like hikmat
is explicitly set up as general: "Baha'u'llah regarded the application
of any of his laws as contained in the Kitab-i-Aqdas as conditional
upon the exercise of wisdom"
> > I think there is a similar tension
> > > in terms of Bahais not denying their faith and what hikmat will allow.
> >
> > Then once again, you didn't read my article very carefully. What I have
> > documented is a situation where what Baha'is could do in the name of
> > 'hikmat' became increasingly more narrow over time.
>
> Even if that were true, I'm not sure how it affects the point.
>
>
>
>
> > > I think I tried to ask this earlier but got an unclear answer.
> > >
> > > Suppose there was a Bahai state and it was attacked by one of its
> > > neighbors. Wouldn't that Bahai state be justified in defending itself
> > > from that attack? (And could you refer to a specific text or texts in
> > > the writings on this point?)
>
>
> > If my answer was less than clear it is because as I tried to tell you
> > earlier there will never be a 'single' Baha'i state with those around
> > it not being Baha'i.
>
> Is that your individual opinion or is that clearly stated in the
> writings? Something else?
>
> For clarity maybe I should ask you what YOU mean by Bahai state? Can we
> talk about a Bahai-majority state with mostly-Bahai elected officials
> where Bahai perspectives are reflected in the government? Perhaps local
> governments turned over some oftheir functions to LSAs or some other
> Bahai organization/entity?
>
> But if this theoretical Baha'i state which cannot
> > exist as you formulate it were attacked, whether or not it could defend
> > itself might depend on a couple of things. Was it attacked because it
> > was Baha'i? If so, then my understanding is that it could not defend
> > itself. If it were attacked for some other reason, perhaps it could,
> > but probably only in conjunction with other nations arising to help it.
> >
> >
> > warmest, Susan
>
>
--
"There are no poets"
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent
by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and
for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by
federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please
immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message
and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__________________________________________________
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
