The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 4:25 AM, Matt Haase <[email protected]> wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Just some stuff I picked up over time. I think it would be somewhat > problematic from a Muslim perspective to claim that Arius's teachings were > in line with Islamic beliefs, unless one believes that the Qur'an is the > "created" word of God as opposed to the "eternal" word of God.
I think you are taking the analogy way to far. Yes, there are writers who have pointed out that in certain respects, the role of the Quran for Muslims is like the role of Christ *for Christians* and that the illiteracy of Muhammad is similar to the virginity of Mary. But I don't think that Arius' teachings about Jesus have anything to say about the nature of the Quran. And I wouldn't necessarily argue that Arius is perfectly in line with the Islamic understanding of original Christianity in everything he said, For me he is interesting because he is an example of a major Christian figure (high ranking clergy) who promoted an alternative to mainstream Christianity, specifically he didn't believe that Jesus was God, he specifically affirms that Son was created by God and so he rejects the Divinity of Christ and the Trinity. Since Jesus > is regarded as the "Word" in Christianity, the closest comparison in Islam > would be the Qur'an. The Quran actually calls Jesus the word of God as well, but when Muslims explain what that means, it follows fairly closely the sense attributed to Arius. i.e. Jesus is called the word because he was created directly *by* God's word (as opposed to the usual way most humans come into the world) not that he is somehow identical to God's creative word. Arius says that Christ is NOT the true word. As I'm sure you know, there was a great debate in Islam > during the early period over the issue of the Qur'an's "createdness" or > "eternal" nature. The Mu'tazalites taught that God created the Qur'an, > whereas scholars such as Ahmad ibn Hanbal believed that it was eternal. Most > Muslims came to the consensus that the Qur'an is the "eternal" word of God. > Since Jesus is roughly the "Qur'an" of Christianity, and the Qur'an is > roughly the "Jesus" of Islam (not a perfect analogy, I know), would it not > make sense to agree with the people who claimed the "Word" was eternal and > not created? I'm not intending to argue, I'm just curious. You raise an interesting question but I think that the answer lies in reading Alexander's summary of Arianism more carefully. Alexander says: That [according to Arius, Jesus] is neither like the Father >> as it regards his essence, nor is by nature either the Father’s *true >> Word*, or *true Wisdom*, but indeed one of his works and creatures, being >> erroneously called Word and Wisdom, since he was himself made of God’s >> own Word and the Wisdom which is in God, whereby God both made all >> things and him also. > On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Gilberto Simpson > <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Where are you getting your information about what Arius believed? >> Also, I'm not sure exactly where you are coming from since the Bahai >> faith on the one hand would affirm the Quranic teaching on Jesus while >> at the same time affirming that "sonship" and "divinity" of Jesus so >> I'm not exactly sure how you are disagreeing with Arius. >> >> (from Wikipedia) according to Alexander (so a hostile witness) what >> Arius taught was the following: >> >> That God was not always the Father, but that there was a period when >> he was not the Father; that the Word of God was not from eternity, but >> was made out of nothing; for that the ever-existing God (‘the I >> AM’—the eternal One) made him who did not previously exist, out of >> nothing; wherefore there was a time when he did not exist, inasmuch as >> the Son is a creature and a work. That he is neither like the Father >> as it regards his essence, nor is by nature either the Father’s true >> Word, or true Wisdom, but indeed one of his works and creatures, being >> erroneously called Word and Wisdom, since he was himself made of God’s >> own Word and the Wisdom which is in God, whereby God both made all >> things and him also. Wherefore he is as to his nature mutable and >> susceptible of change, as all other rational creatures are: hence the >> Word is alien to and other than the essence of God; and the Father is >> inexplicable by the Son, and invisible to him, for neither does the >> Word perfectly and accurately know the Father, neither can he >> distinctly see him. The Son knows not the nature of his own essence: >> for he was made on our account, in order that God might create us by >> him, as by an instrument; nor would he ever have existed, unless God >> had wished to create us. >> >> >> obviously the son/father language is problematic for Muslims but it is >> clear from the above that the Son was made not begotten. >> >> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 6:50 PM, Matt Haase <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> > >> > I would have to agree with Minhaj about Arius. I don't think he taught >> > an >> > "Islamic" view of Jesus more so than he believed that Christ was like a >> > "lesser divinity" of God. On the other hand, the Baha'i teachings (from >> > my >> > perspective) teach that God is the only Divine Being and that the >> > Manifestations of God reflect His light in the best manner possible >> > according to human standards. >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Susan Maneck <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> >> > >> >> > I requested his source on Arianism. >> >> >> >> Ah, I must have missed that. >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> >> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] >> >> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >> >> >> >> mailto:leave-535006-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu >> >> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to >> >> [email protected] >> >> Or subscribe: >> >> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >> >> Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >> >> Mail - mailto:[email protected] >> >> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st >> >> News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >> >> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> >> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> > >> > __________________________________________________ >> > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: >> > mailto:[email protected] >> > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >> > mailto:leave-535012-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu >> > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to >> > [email protected] >> > Or subscribe: >> > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >> > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >> > Mail - mailto:[email protected] >> > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st >> > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >> > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> >> __________________________________________________ >> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] >> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >> mailto:leave-535013-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu >> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to >> [email protected] >> Or subscribe: >> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >> Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >> Mail - mailto:[email protected] >> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st >> News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> > > __________________________________________________ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-535023-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > [email protected] > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:[email protected] > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-535052-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email protected] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[email protected] Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
