The Baha'i Studies Listserv That really doesn't answer the question. Non-Baha'is won't just accept that statement as factual because Baha'is believe it. A lot of Baha'is have magical thinking that somehow non-Baha'is will naturally be drawn to it.
Sent from my iPad On Apr 18, 2013, at 12:58, Mike Moum <mike.m...@gmail.com> wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Because Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah has given us God's most recent > revelation. > On 04/18/2013 12:16 PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote: >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> The articles show the relationship between religion and morality and ethics. >> >> Why should non- Bahai's take Baha'i morality and ethics over all else. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_and_religion >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_in_religion >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Apr 18, 2013, at 11:37, Stephen Kent Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>> I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, >>> religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their >>> relationship to post conventional morality. >>> >>> Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, >>> Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian >>> Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, >>> Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various >>> ics.Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious >>> Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, New >>> Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World Severs, >>> Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and >>> Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, Liberal >>> Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM >>> University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, Neo-Gnosticism, >>> Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no Kagaku, various >>> Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New Religious Movements are >>> good examples to use. >>> >>> I assume everyone here is familiar with Kohlberg and his six, or seven, >>> stages of moral development and don't need to explain pre-conventional, >>> conventional, and post-conventional moralities. Conventional morality tends >>> to make people think under the lines of malum prohibitum or mala prohibita, >>> evil because it's prohibited. Post conventional morality tends to make >>> people think in terms of malum in se or mala in se, evil in and of itself. >>> Most of the above religions above are completely post conventional. I guess >>> the Baha'i Faith is post conventional, but the Kitab-I-Aqdas does tend to >>> be used as a tool of conventional rather than post conventional morality. I >>> would rather use other examples of the above. Unitarian Universalism is a >>> prime example with no laws at all, but various principles. Wicca is another >>> example with the Wiccan Rede as a good summary of post conventional >>> morality as well as the Charge of the Goddess. Scientology and the Way to >>> Happiness also describe morality in this way as well. Nichiren Buddhism and >>> its Diamond Chalice Precept is another good example of post conventional >>> morality. The parables of the Lotus Sutra are also used as guidelines of >>> ethical and moral principles. Mahayana Buddhism in general has favored >>> non-aggression based compassion in, over, and above all things. This has >>> lead to a history of compassion leading people to do prohibited things >>> which aren't evil in themselves, but were prohibited because compassion >>> dictated it. Drinking alcohol, having sex, eating animal products, wearing >>> animal products, etc. can be motivated by compassion and bring people >>> closer to enlightenment as illustrated in the Buddhism section of the books >>> section of the Religion and Sexuality page on Wikipedia. I remember looking >>> at the previews on Amazon of the two books on Sex in Zen and Buddhism in >>> general as well, especially Zen and Vajrayana. The above >>> position has been known as the standard Tantra position. >>> >>> Also, no I don't align myself with the the Left or the Right most of the >>> time because my fiscal responsibility puts me at odds with the Left and my >>> social tolerance puts me at odds with the Right. >>> >>> This reminds me of a recent debate on Abby Martin, because I watch RT News. >>> She had three representatives of various ideologies on her show to debate. >>> Two representatives of the Libertarian Left and one representative of the >>> Libertarian Right. Actually, they wound up agreeing on a whole bunch of >>> points. >>> >>> A side note is that the Left wing media tends to fire anyone who questions >>> Authoritarianism. Once that happens, Right wing media picks them up and >>> hires them. Just think of all the people who were fired from CNN, NBC, NPR, >>> or whatever other media outlet for ideological reasons and now work for >>> Fox. Noam Chomsky, a noted Left Libertarian, has said that original only >>> Right wing publishers were willing to publish his works. >>> >>> There is also the rise of a pro-LGBT conservatism as seen by the likes of >>> David Cameron in Great Britain. They favor LGBT rights, but for different >>> reasons than the Authoritarian Left. The Libertarian Right questions the >>> government's authority to centrally plan society and the economy. Marriage >>> privatization is seen as ideal. The Libertarian Right, libertarians and >>> conservatives, oppose aggression as opposed to the Authoritarian Left who >>> has no qualms about using aggression as a means to all of its ends. Look up >>> all the organizations that support same sex marriage in the United States >>> on Wikipedia. Notice that depending on the ideology of the organization >>> they will formulate different reasons for supporting same sex marriage. >>> Things like adoption and marriage are private contracts and the government >>> has no reason to interfere is the standard Libertarian Right argument. The >>> government needs to step in and socially engineer society by using >>> aggression as a means of achieving desired social policies such as forcing >>> people to accept and recognize as acceptable what we view as such like gay >>> marriage and gay adoption while reject and unacceptable what we view as >>> such like support for traditional marriage. >>> >>> Note Liberalism can mean four different ideologies: Conservatism >>> (paradoxically to people who believe this is the opposite of liberalism), >>> Classical Market Liberalism (better known as Libertarianism), Modern Social >>> Liberalism (better known as Progressivism), and Social Democracy. >>> >>> I think the free market is the most efficient and effective mean of >>> administration. I also favor the non-aggression principle in all things and >>> over all things for morality. Also, what I've read from various blogs like >>> Karen Bacquet's blogs and various other is that the ideal of Baha'i >>> Administration and the reality of Baha'i Administration are two separate >>> things. Actually the stories I've read of Baha'i Administration in action >>> rivals North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other such places in >>> terms of totalitarianism. >>> >>> Interesting side note, what if consultation resulted in the people involved >>> accepting anything forbidden by the Kitab-I-Aqdas? While homosexuality >>> isn't technically mentioned, people who are familiar with the homosexuals >>> and pedophiles are equivalent stereotype will recognize an >>> indirect reference. There are lots of things Baha'is think are evil based >>> on the sole fact that they are prohibited in the Kitab-I-Aqdas. There are >>> obviously evil things prohibited in there like slavery, murder, theft, >>> arson, etc. I would need to lookup the Wikipedia page on Baha'i laws to >>> remember other prohibited things. So out of all the things in the Aqdas >>> that are prohibited, what do you think ate evil in themselves? >>> >>> Back to the Political Compass four square of Authoritarian versus >>> Libertarian and Left versus Right, the quadrants have various strengths in >>> various time and places. Generally whenever one quadrant gains powers and >>> upsets the other three, the other other form an impromptu alliance to bring >>> down that quadrant. >>> >>> Back to Aeons. The Aeon of Isis represented materialism. The Aeon of Osiris >>> represented paternalism. The Aeon of Horus represent individualism. I'm >>> happy I live after rather than before 1904 for this very reason. >>> >>> Also, I find your description of Administrators to be not consistent with >>> the facts of how Administrators actually behave. They go and "suggest" how >>> people should behave and various other things which is either a covert >>> threat or even sometimes an overt threat of DO WHAT I SAY OR ELSE YOU'LL >>> HAVE YOUR VOTING RIGHTS REMOVED, DISENROLLED, OR EVEN WORSE. Anyone who has >>> read the stories of various dis enrolled and ex Baha'is will know how >>> Administrators actually work. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 16:01, Stephen Kent Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>>> Interesting, I'm a member of the Libertarian Right myself. Classical >>>> liberalism, Libertarianism, Minarchism, Anarcho-Capitalism, Laissez-faire, >>>> etc. >>>> >>>> Sounds like the concept of Aeons in Thelema. >>>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon_(Thelema) >>>> >>>> Lots of religious groups have concepts of dispensationalism. >>>> Examples >>>> Hare Krishnas and the Age of Bhakti >>>> Nichiren Buddhists and the Age of the Lotus Sutra >>>> Discordians and the Age of Eris >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 15:25, Don Calkins <don59...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>>>> on the contrary . . . . >>>>> >>>>> Like most Euro-Americans, you believe in some kind of authoritarianism in >>>>> which those in control pass laws to make people behave according to your >>>>> standards and then punish people who do not comply. i reject that as an >>>>> efficient and effective means of administration. >>>>> >>>>> Further, I do believe in a form of separation of church and state such >>>>> that Baha'i law will not be forced on non-Baha'is. >>>>> >>>>> What happens when Baha'is "run the world"? First off, I reject the >>>>> terminology. I don't believe Baha'is will ever "be in charge" in the >>>>> sense that governments are today. When the Baha'i Commonwealth with the >>>>> House of Justice at its head comes into being, the entire idea of someone >>>>> being in charge will be seen as anachronistic. >>>>> >>>>> How do I believe the Baha'i administration will "come to power"? By >>>>> default. It will be recognized as the only effective administrative >>>>> system that is actually functioning. You think this is impossible? Look >>>>> at what has happened in parts of the world where the central government >>>>> has collapsed and fundamentalist Islam has been embraced by the populace, >>>>> if only temporarily. They were accepted because they provided stability >>>>> and nobody else could. in a similar manner, parts of northern Italy were >>>>> ruled by the Communist Party for the the same reason. You may not have >>>>> liked their philosophy, but there were relatively corruption free. >>>>> >>>>> You and I Stephen have extremely different administrative philosophies. >>>>> Not only am I a Baha'i, but I also have a libertarian left administrative >>>>> philosophy. There are not very many other Baha'is in that category and >>>>> even fewer who have given any tho't as to how that philosophy informs the >>>>> functioning of the Baha'i Administration. >>>>> >>>>> According to Baha'u'llah, this is not merely a new Dispensation, but a >>>>> new age, the Age of Maturity. As such, what we are >>>>> going thru' is the greatest change to the functioning of human affairs >>>>> since the mythic "Time of Adam", when the Culture Hero societies replaced >>>>> the Mother Goddess societies. The Adamic Cycle can be seen as the >>>>> equivalent of going thru' puberty. We are now embarking on our maturity >>>>> and it is time for us to grow up and take responsibility for our own >>>>> affairs instead of waiting for mommy and daddy >>>>> (kings/gov'ts/administrators) to tell us what to do. Rather, the new >>>>> purpose of administrators is to remind us, repeatedly and persistently if >>>>> necessary, what the proper principles should guide us. Shoghi Effendi >>>>> made reference to this idea many years ago when he told local Assemblies >>>>> to quit making up rules to enforce on their members. >>>>> >>>>> Another point - most leftist activists in the United States are >>>>> authoritarian, they seek power so they can make >>>>> other people do things their way. Most leftist activists also define >>>>> equality in terms of power; that is, a group of people are only equal to >>>>> the extent they have members who exercise power. That is the reason some >>>>> people make a big deal out of there not being any women on the House of >>>>> Justice. It is seen as having for its purpose the exercise of power and >>>>> if women are not allowed to participate, then they have less power and >>>>> are, therefore, not quite equal. I reject that entire argument. >>>>> >>>>> You may think I have avoided the topic or changed it. i have not. What >>>>> I have done is shown how your entire argument is irrelevant. >>>>> >>>>> Don C >>>>> >>>>>> Susan, have you read the earlier e-mail in this thread. Don C thinks >>>>>> society should have a zero tolerance policy towards non-heterosexuality. >>>>>> No marriage, no civil unions, no domestic partnership, no adoption, no >>>>>> parental rights, etc. He was complaining society gives them too many >>>>>> rights and blames it on secular liberalism. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----------- >>>>> It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you never go outside. > > -- > ------------ > Mike and Dede Moum > Des Moines, Iowa > Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org > Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-697874-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
