Tom wrote:
> > Thanks for agreeing to do this Jerry!
> >
> > It is a pleasure to talk with someone of the Baha'i faith.
> >
> > Websters dictionary defines the verb form of manifest as "to make
> > evident or certain by showing or displaying." I realize that
> > dictionaries do not always define theological terms correctly. Do you
> > agree with this definition? If not, then please let me know.
Here's my take on this. Hopefully it will be useful.
The manifestations speak directly for God, through the Holy Spirit (aka
angel of the Lord, Holy Ghost, Spirit of Truth, Tree of Life, the Word,
etceteras). God manifests His will through them.
"And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the
midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and
the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see
this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he
turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and
said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I."
(King James Bible, Exodus 3:2-4)
"Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come
upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore
also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of
God."
(King James Bible, Luke 1:34)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and
the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the
darkness comprehended it not."
(John 1:1-5
> As I understand, what you are saying is this: God was
> > perfectly manifested in Jesus. Now I have a couple questions and
> > observations. I asume that by adding the word "perfect" you are
> > implying that God does indeed manifest himself in other people, just not
> > perfectly (leaving aside Moses, Mohammud, etc..), correct?
Other people have no direct connection to God through the Holy Spirit, but
rather are connected to God through the Manifestation and can mirror the
perfection of God only by being obedient to the teachings of the
Manifestation.
"It is evident that the souls receive grace from the bounty of the Holy
Spirit which appears in the Manifestations of God, and not from the
personality of the Manifestation."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 128)
>>Does this mean that Jesus perfectly manifested God (As opposed
> > to God manifesting himself in Jesus)? In other words. Was it the
> > result of Jesus' works that God was manifested in him, or did God
> > essentially choose him, so that it was God doing all of the work?
In one aspect Jesus was a man, separate from God, who at times spoke as a
man:
"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the
bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
(King James Bible, John 1:18)
"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is
just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which
hath sent me."
(King James Bible, John 5:30)
"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If
ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my
Father is greater than I."
(King James Bible, John 14:28)
And God absolutely chose Jesus to speak for him:
". . . he that hath seen me hath seen the Father . . ."
(King James Bible, John 14:9)
"I and my Father are one."
(King James Bible, John 10:30)
One way to look at the relationship between God and the Manifestations is
found in the parable of the vineyard with God as the Lord of the Vineyard,
who sent his servants (e.g. Moses), then his son and heir (Christ), then
came himself (Baha'u'llah).
"Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a
vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a
long time. And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they
should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him,
and sent him away empty. And again he sent another servant: and they beat
him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty. And again
he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out. Then said the
lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be
they will reverence him when they see him. But when the husbandmen saw him,
they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill
him, that the inheritance may be ours. So they cast him out of the
vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do
unto them? He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the
vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid."
(Luke, 20:9-16)
> >a human, did, so to speak, obey the law perfectly and did earn his way
> > into heaven (i.e. manifested God. Also see Isaiah 63:5) whereas all
> > other Christians do not earn their way into heaven (i.e. God manfests
> > himself in them). So is there an essential difference to how God is
Simply recognizing Christ is not a free pass into heaven, there is a
requirement to "doeth the will" of God.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many
will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful
works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me,
ye that work iniquity."
(Matthew 7:21-23
> By saying that Jesus was a perfect manifestation of God, do you
> > mean that only his actions and beliefs were perfect, or that every
> > single aspect of Jesus was and always was a perfect manifestation.
"The soul or spirit of the individual comes into being with the conception
of his physical body.
"The Prophets [Manifestations], unlike us, are pre-existent. The Soul of
Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We
cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture
His state of being.
"We cannot know God directly, but only through His Prophets. We can pray to
Him, realizing that through His Prophets we know Him, or we can address our
prayer in thought to Bah�'u'll�h, not as God but as the Door to our knowing
God.
"We find God only through the Intermediary of His Prophet. We see the
Perfection of God in His Prophets. Time and space are physical things, God,
the Creator is not in a 'place' as we conceive of place in physical terms.
God is the Infinite Essence, the Creator. We cannot picture Him or His
state; if we did, we would be His equals, not His Creatures. God is never
flesh, but mirrored in the attributes of His Prophets, we see His Divine
characteristics and perfections."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual
believer, October 9, 1947)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 504)
"The third plane of that Being [1] is the Divine Bounty, the splendor of the
Preexistent Beauty, and the radiance of the light of the Almighty. The
individual realities of the Divine Manifestations have no separation from
the Bounty of God and the Lordly Splendor. In the same way, the orb of the
sun has no separation from the light. Therefore, it may be said that the
ascension of the Holy Manifestation is simply the leaving of this elemental
form. For example, if a lamp illumines this niche, and if its light ceases
to illuminate it because the niche is destroyed, the bounty of the lamp is
not cut off. Briefly, in the Holy Manifestations the Preexistent Bounty is
like the light, the individuality is represented by the glass globe, and the
human body is like the niche: if the niche is destroyed, the lamp continues
to burn. The Divine Manifestations are so many different mirrors because
They have a special individuality, but that which is reflected in the
mirrors is one sun. It is clear that the reality of Christ is different from
that of Moses."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 154)
> Finally, you have said in the past that it is correct to address
> > Jesus as "God". When you call him God, do you mean that He is God in
> > the same way that the Father is God? Is it appropriete to worship and
> > pray to Jesus?
> >
The Baha'i teaching is that it is appropriate to pray to the Manifestation
as an intermediary to God:
"You have asked whether our prayers go beyond Bah�'u'll�h: It all depends
whether we pray to Him directly and through Him to God. We may do both and
also can pray directly to God, but our prayers would certainly be more
effective and illuminating if they are addressed to Him through His
Manifestation, Bah�'u'll�h.
"Under no circumstances, however, we can, while repeating the prayers,
insert the name Bah�'u'll�h where the word 'God' is used. This would be
tantamount to a blasphemy."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer,
October 14, 1937)
"We cannot know God directly, but only through His Prophets. We can pray to
Him realizing that through His Prophets we know Him, or we can address our
prayer in thought to Bah�'u'll�h, not as God, but as the Door to our knowing
God.
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual
believer: High Endeavours: Messages to Alaska, p.71) (Compilations, Lights
of Guidance, p. 457)
"If you find you need to visualize someone when you pray, think of the
Master ('Abdu'l-Baha, the Son of Baha'u'llah). Through Him you can address
Bah�'u'll�h. Gradually try to think of the qualities of the Manifestation,
and in that way a mental form will fade out, for after all the body is not
the thing, His Spirit is there and is the essential, everlasting element."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual
believer, January 31, 1959), (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 458)
Again, I hope this is useful.
Patti
----------
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public)
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
