Dear Per I do have the reference and a murky photocopy of this picture somewhere, but can't find it at the moment-I'll look tomorrow, and send the info if I can find it.The picture is by Antoine Pesne.
Martin On 10/1/07 21:41, "Martin Eastwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Stewart > > Someone early on in this thread suggested that Thomas Mace nowhere suggests > the use of the ring finger. In fact he does-p.101, in describing how to play > 4 part chords (arpeggiated). He also says it is no longer fashionable. And > he does suggest resting the little finger below the bridge, with no > suggestion that it should ever be lifted. For Weiss, there are numerous > sections of 4 part chords, often with the direction "arpeggio", which are > much easier with the use of the ring finger. There is also a portrait of > Princess Wilhelmine (sister of Frederick the Great), a known fan of Weiss, > playing with a right hand position that is pure Thomas Mace. > > I've been playing with my little finger close to, and at times behind, the > bridge, for many years, without problems. I have an 11 course lute I've > owned since 1982, and have noticed that one effect as the instrument ages is > that the treble string responds more easily, and works with a lower string > tension than whan it was new. Playing this way does produce an increased > polarisation between the tone colours of bass and treble registers-but then, > that is how I like it! I do sometimes feel that modern lute players have > rather set ideas about what constitutes "good" tone > > > > > On 7/1/07 17:51, "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Dear Robert, >> >> Thank you for what you say about right-hand fingering, and for >> giving us the two website addresses. >> >> Whether or not it is a good idea to use the ring finger is >> determined to some extent by one's hand position in relation to the >> bridge. If one's right hand plucks close to the rose, the ring >> finger can join in efficiently with the other fingers. If, on the >> other hand, the right hand is held very close to the bridge, or even >> with the little finger on or behind the bridge, the ring finger >> cannot match the sound of the other fingers, assuming it can even >> reach the strings in the first place. A source which advocates the >> use or non-use of the ring finger not only tells us about right-hand >> fingering, but also provides a clue as to where the hand should be >> held in relation to the bridge. >> >> Playing close to the bridge produces a crisp, clear sound, which is >> desirable if there is lots of sympathetic resonance from a large >> number of strings, but it means losing the option of using the >> fourth finger. It is certainly a disadvantage, if the ring finger is >> not available for arpeggiating four-note chords. I just wonder if >> some players might sometimes have moved their right hand away from >> the bridge towards the rose, not so much for the resultant change in >> timbre, but so that they could bring the ring finger into play for >> certain passages, and move it back again when the texture thins out. >> I am aware that Thomas Mace says that the little finger should stay >> glued to the same spot. >> >> Thank you, by the way, for your talk on this subject to the Lute >> Society some time ago. You gave us much food for thought. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Stewart McCoy. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Robert Barto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "BAROQUE-LUTE-LIST" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 8:05 PM >> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] 18th-century right hand fingering (long) >> >> >>> Wayne tells me this should come through now. >>> >>> I've done a little article on 18th-century right hand fingering >> that will be >>> appearing in one of the next LSA quarterlies, so I don't want to >> say too >>> much here. But it is evident from Wroclaw 2002 (Kniebandl) and >> several other >>> sources, that the ring finger was used commonly in four voice >> chords and >>> arpeggios. (It's difficult to date this MS, but even assuming >> 1730-1760 it >>> is still of interest.) >>> >>> The MS can be found here: >>> >>> http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01tc/Wroclaw2002/ >>> >>> And more about it, here: >>> >>> http://www.tabulatura.de/Knieban/KNintro.htm >>> >>> In the London and Dresden Weiss manuscripts, there are a total of >> (I think) >>> three or four notated ring finger signs. (Dresden p.248 Bb >> Sarabande, son. >>> 25, London p.56v Prelude dm son.13, London p.89r, Hartig Tombeau, >> have ring >>> finger notated. Where else? )But one can assume that Weiss used >> the ring >>> finger in arpeggios similarly to the examples in Wroclaw and >> elsewhere. In >>> these situations it would have been so common that he wouldn't >> have to >>> mention it. (Four voice chords and longer arpeggios.) >>> >>> This is not to say that he did not use certain two finger customs >> or >>> "tricks" that came from the earlier tradition. Many of his >> fingerings, for >>> example in the Eb prelude on page 145v in London, indicate this. >> ( He may >>> have written them out because they were not obvious, or for a >> special >>> effect.) >>> >>> In the larger arpeggios, especially in the preludes and fantasias, >> one of >>> course can decide whether to jump up from the bass with the thumb, >> as Weiss >>> often specifies, or to use the ring finger in the middle and top >> somewhere. >>> In the larger arpeggios in the allegros and prestos, one can >> assume that the >>> ring finger was used, again as shown in Wroclaw 2002 and >> elsewhere, which >>> reflect what was probably the common practice of the time. >>> >>> Although we have no evidence that the ring finger was used in >> melodic lines, >>> I think that the modern player has to decide this for himself, as >> baroque >>> lute spacings and hand sizes vary greatly. Weiss's melodies are >> also more >>> intricate than those of his contemporaries, so it would require >> some very >>> tricky fingering to always avoid the ring finger, for whatever >> reason. >>> >>> My original reason for bringing this to the list, was that in the >> article I >>> say that the French (and German) players of the late 17th century >> did not >>> use the ring finger. I wanted to make sure that there were not >> sources that >>> contradict this. >>> >>> Monin, for the angelique, and Saizenay, for the theorbo, do >> apparently use >>> the ring finger occasionally, perhaps implying a different >> technical >>> approach on these instruments than on the French 11-course. >>> >>> Robert >> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
