No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly.
The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very long time". The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +0000, Martyn Hodgson wrote: >Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in >its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they >dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th >courses would run? > >Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still >have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll >know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became >relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, >Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses >were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing >a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg ><http://www.harpguitars.net>www.harpguitars.net has many pictures. > >MH > >Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing >a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the >castle attic for "a very long time". > >ed > > > >At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +0000, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > >Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the > >movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), > >perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? > > > >MH > > > >Edward Martin wrote: > >Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in > >storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a "Heckel" looked > >at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. > > > >ed > > > >.At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +0000, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > > Thank you for this. > > > > > >Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound > > >a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have > > >been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I > > >realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not > > >have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the > > >house having a strum on the old lute he found in the > > >attic...................... > > > > > >MH > > > > > > > > >Edward Martin wrote: > > >Dear ones, > > > > > >I have an interesting story. > > > > > >Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in > South > > >Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many > > >lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars > > >by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, > > >Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. > > > > > >The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for > > >about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They > > >have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm > > >mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by > > >Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted > > >to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in > > >1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of > bird's > > >eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew. > > > > > >What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented that these > > >lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It appeared to me > > >that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy usage, so > > >it was more than likely played at a professional level. One player played > > >near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as well as > > >the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One > > >player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are > > >multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long > > >right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards > the > > >neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular > > >instrument, there were more than one player using very different > > >techniques. As well, they played a technique with the thumb pointed > > >towards the rose, as the old paintings show, but _NOT_ by the bridge. > > > > > >The longer lute in yew showed patterns and evidence of it being played > very > > >close to the bridge. The little area at the treble end of the bridge was > > >worn down from overuse of the pinky being planted there. > > > > > >It seems that these lutes, although in possession by the same family > in the > > >same castle, are similar in that they are both Edlinger conversions to 13 > > >course baroque lutes with bass riders. They do appear to have had > > >dissimilar techniques and player positions, as evidenced by the wear > on the > > >sound boards, suggesting that the same player did not play the 2 > > >instruments, and the shorter one had at least 2 different players. > > > > > >All in all, in was a humbling experience, to examine these > masterpieces, so > > >close up, and to hold them in playing position. The marks I mentioned on > > >the shorter instrument do not show up well on photography, but are very > > >open & obvious to the naked eye. > > > > > >ed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Edward Martin > > >2817 East 2nd Street > > >Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > >e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > >Sent from > > >Yahoo! > > >- a smarter inbox. > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1261 - Release Date: > 2/5/2008 > > >8:57 PM > > > > > > > > > > > >Edward Martin > >2817 East 2nd Street > >Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > >e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > > > > > > > > >Sent from > >Yahoo! > >- a smarter inbox. > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1263 - Release Date: 2/6/2008 > >8:14 PM > > > > > >Edward Martin >2817 East 2nd Street >Duluth, Minnesota 55812 >e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > > >Sent from ><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51949/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html>Yahoo! > >- a smarter inbox. >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1263 - Release Date: 2/6/2008 >8:14 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
