Ed
I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html
They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
Anthony
Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :
No trouble at all, Martyn.
Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
lute, as
I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
the
rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks
would be
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
course, down
to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
accordingly. So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the
rose, but
marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly.
The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
not from a
strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
also asked
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
lutenist
would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is
amazing.
The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the
pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very
long
time". The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
baroque
lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a
musician playing close to the bridge.
ed
At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +0000, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
played in
its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th
courses would run?
Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might
still
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.
You'll
know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,
Padovetz,
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more
courses
were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums
playing
a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
<http://www.harpguitars.net>www.harpguitars.net has many pictures.
MH
Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from
playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were
in the
castle attic for "a very long time".
ed
At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +0000, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the
movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before
1907),
perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless?
MH
Edward Martin wrote:
Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to
be in
storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a
"Heckel" looked
at them, and put back into storage in the castle..
ed
.At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +0000, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Thank you for this.
Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the
rose sound
a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist.
Could it have
been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th
century? I
realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they
might not
have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son
of the
house having a strum on the old lute he found in the
attic......................
MH
Edward Martin wrote:
Dear ones,
I have an interesting story.
Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of
Music, in
South
Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have
many, many
lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also
have guitars
by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by
Stradivarius, Ganeri,
Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.
The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined
them for
about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position,
etc. They
have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is
76 cm
mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps
originally by
Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were
converted
to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer
instrument in
1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of
bird's
eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew.
What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented
that these
lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It
appeared to me
that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy
usage, so
it was more than likely played at a professional level. One
player played
near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as
well as
the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger
marks. One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there
are
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),
from a long
right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose,
towards
the
neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this
particular
instrument, there were more than one player using very different
techniques. As well, they played a technique with the thumb pointed
towards the rose, as the old paintings show, but _NOT_ by the
bridge.
The longer lute in yew showed patterns and evidence of it being
played
very
close to the bridge. The little area at the treble end of the
bridge was
worn down from overuse of the pinky being planted there.
It seems that these lutes, although in possession by the same
family
in the
same castle, are similar in that they are both Edlinger
conversions to 13
course baroque lutes with bass riders. They do appear to have had
dissimilar techniques and player positions, as evidenced by the
wear
on the
sound boards, suggesting that the same player did not play the 2
instruments, and the shorter one had at least 2 different players.
All in all, in was a humbling experience, to examine these
masterpieces, so
close up, and to hold them in playing position. The marks I
mentioned on
the shorter instrument do not show up well on photography, but
are very
open & obvious to the naked eye.
ed
Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota 55812
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice: (218) 728-1202
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