On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 at 8:02:21 PM UTC-6, Martin Blais wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 9:19 AM Jeff Brantley <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > >> >> >> On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 11:52:23 PM UTC-6, Martin Blais wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 11:23 PM Jeff Brantley <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> The vesting cookbook details a way to account for RSUs, and elsewhere >>>> there is occasional mention of tracking paid time off (PTO) as a commodity >>>> VACHR (vacation hours), though I've not seen as much detail on the latter. >>>> There appears to be some similarity here, as both situations represent >>>> credit for future income---income which the US IRS considers to have >>>> occurred upon that future date. >>>> >>> >>> In the case of vacation the IRS is not involved; it's your employer who >>> is tracking the amount of accumulated vacation hours they owe you. >>> >>> We're in agreement here. I'm saying the IRS doesn't care when I accrue >> vacation or get an unvested stock grant, they care when I receive income >> (which my employer may implicitly or explicitly attribute a portion of to >> PTO taken) or when my shares vest. >> >> >>> >>>> For vacation, my employer's pay slips specifically split out what is >>>> normally a single "salary" line item into salary and PTO pay, with an >>>> effective hourly rate listed. >>>> >>> >>> Perfect! >>> FWIW mine doesn't, so this looks like a new case to me (does that mean >>> you pay more taxes than I do? i.e., do you pay taxes on your received >>> vacation equivalent? and if that's the case, if you converted to cash it >>> would be already taxed money? Hmm. I doubt it.). >>> >>> >> To be clear, I'm describing the case when I take vacation. I accrue >> vacation as hours like a typical salaried job, with no corresponding tax at >> that time. When I take vacation, my income and withholding are the same as >> other paychecks (+/- 0.01 USD), but my payslip breaks the income line into >> two lines, one showing hours * hourly-rate => vacation pay, and the other >> line making up the difference to arrive at my normal income amount. >> > > Oh I see now. > Then I would just deduct from my vacation assets account at that point. > TBH, that would be convenient if my own employer's payment processor did > that; in my case it's a bit unclear what pay slip each vacation day goes > unto, so I end up booking the vacation on dates between the pay dates in > order to make it balance, and I visually cross-check against the records > from Workday, which is the system that is used to request & report on time > off. > > > >> Some companies also allow cashing out of vacation at various times, such >>>> as when terminating one's employment. >>>> >>> >>> Yep; and if you track it, you should be able to calculate precisely how >>> much that check is going to be for. >>> >>> >>> So, assuming one is booking VACHR or HOOL.UNVEST into Asset accounts, I >>>> could see the "realization" date booking going one of two ways: >>>> >>> >>> Note that - importantly - the VACHR units can convert to dollars and >>> some non-zero value should appear on your balance sheet, and when you take >>> vacations your balance sheet should diminish. I price those to estimated >>> net salary / hours and insert new pricing directives if salary changes. >>> This is not quite the case for granted but unvested RSUs; their present >>> value is zero (until they vest). I price those to zero. >>> >>> Oh interesting; and one fewer oddball currency on the balance sheet. >> >>> >>> Option 1) Directly cash in the commodity (with some made up numbers): >>>> >>>> 2018-01-15 * "Payroll" >>>> ;Typical posting when no vacation taken: >>>> ;Income:Hooli:Salary -2600.00 USD >>>> Assets:Hooli:Vacation -8 VACHR @ 30.00 USD >>>> Income:Hooli:Salary -2360.00 USD >>>> ; ...postings to spend down 2600.00 USD in gross income... >>>> >>>> This lines up well with how my existing payslips are already >>>> structured, using pricing (@) to directly capture the relationship between >>>> hours burned and corresponding portion of gross income. This is a one-off >>>> price conversion, too, I don't think VACHR or HOOL.UNVEST would want to be >>>> held "at cost" right? >>>> >>> >>> I don't track cost basis for either of those. In fact, it makes sense >>> not to, say, if your hourly salary increases, the value of those >>> accumulated hours implicitly increases automatically (there's no tax >>> implication for this AFAIK). >>> >>> Right. >> >>> >>> Option 2) >>>> >>>> 2018-01-15 * "Payroll" >>>> Assets:Hooli:Vacation -8 VACHR >>>> Expenses:[Hooli:]Vacation 8 VACHR ; not sure if I'd want the Hooli >>>> segment to scope it >>>> >>> >>> Not an expense. Only use the expense account when you "spend" your >>> vacation hours (that is, you take vacation). Looks like the above. >>> >>> >> But I *am* asking about how to book the case when I take a vacation. >> With Option 1, I treat this as directly liquidating an existing asset of 8 >> VACHR, whereas Option 2 shows the spending of VACHR coincident with >> receiving income, a portion of which my employer attributes to the vacation >> time used. >> >> >>> Income:Hooli:Salary -240.00 USD ; could still choose to break >>>> this out specifically >>>> Income:Hooli:Salary -2360.00 USD >>>> ; ...postings to spend down 2600.00 USD in gross income... >>>> >>>> In this case, the expended commodity is not as directly coupled to the >>>> amount of cash realized, but this lines up better with the U.S. IRS view, >>>> which is that I earned the corresponding income in 2018 (i.e., there is an >>>> Income posting in a 2018-scoped transaction). Likewise with RSUs, where >>>> the >>>> shares generally vest in a different year from that of the initial grant, >>>> and the IRS sees income in the vesting year. >>>> >>> >>> Do they? Are you taxed on the 240.00 USD? I don't think you must be. >>> >> >> I think your surprise here is because you think I'm illustrating >> *accrual* of vacation? In this case, the pay is a concrete 2600.00 USD, >> 240.00 USD of which is attributed to taking some vacation time. All the >> other lines (tax withholding, benefits, and net pay) are the same as any >> other paycheck, within 0.01 USD anyway. >> >> >>> >>> Option 2 is what the Vesting cookbook suggests. >>>> >>> >>> Actually I book the +8 VACHR asset against a -8 VACHR income account, >>> like this: >>> >>> ... >>> Assets:US:Hooli:Vacation 7.69 VACHR >>> Income:US:Hooli:Vacation -7.69 VACHR >>> >>> these are tacked at the end of each of the regular payroll transactions >>> I get. >>> >> >> Yeah somehow we got out of sync about what we're discussing, accruing vs. >> spending vacation. I'm asking about spending. I'm already on board with >> what you show here for the accrual part. >> >> >>> I suppose one way to look at this is to consider the my salary leg >>> includes implicitly something like that above and I'm paying taxes on the >>> vacation that way. >>> If I were you, I'd do it the way I do, and book your income as -2600.00 >>> USD (if you pay taxes on that amount). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I'm just wondering (a) if there were any additional considerations or >>>> pros/cons behind this suggestion besides those I've mentioned, and (b) >>>> whether Martin Blais or any others who track vacation do likewise when >>>> they >>>> take vacation. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Beancount" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beancount/5eea9e36-d53a-42ac-ae05-de3c3a36bcfd%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beancount/5eea9e36-d53a-42ac-ae05-de3c3a36bcfd%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >> Crossed lines aside, it seems like this will mostly come down to what's >> useful for reporting? Booking the use of vacation as directly liquidating a >> VACHR asset fails to produce Income account activity at the moment the IRS >> would "see" real income. Booking it as spending VACHR and getting income at >> the same (or similar) date doesn't suffer from that drawback. Booking it as >> returning VACHR to an Income account (an option #3) while getting USD >> income seems plausible, but booking VACHR to Expenses actually lets you run >> a report of how much vacation time you used up in a given period. >> >> >> Regarding the forked portion of this thread, I want to make clear: I was >> *not* implying that it was taking too long to get a reply when I said >> "As I wait responses." I was trying to indicate that my own self-reply was >> not a complete answer, so I still wanted to hear input from the list. >> > > Absolutely no worries. > > (I'm way, way behind on my email and my Beancount inbox has grown to an > unmanageable level. I'm trying to prioritize reading books and otherwise > focused on work, I'll get to reply all the emails eventually, it'll take > time, I'm basically prioritizing other goals for a while.) > > Of course, thanks for popping in.
Cheers > > > Thanks! >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Beancount" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> <javascript:>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beancount/9bc65982-8561-4f5c-9b52-943507fe4154%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beancount/9bc65982-8561-4f5c-9b52-943507fe4154%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Beancount" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beancount/f30e2b95-b6d0-48bf-9ac2-bff3eeeba45f%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
