Hello fellow Lers and Sandy!
First of all, I apologize to everybody and Sandy Ongemach for not stating that my comment on Sandy's words was not directed against herself. It just caught at a sore place. Again, my response that follows is not a direct answer, but Sandy's letters are so thought-provoking! :-)
And I just realized that I have missed "no". I should have written: "Some breeder may have no intentions to scam..."
Having said all this, I would like to share the details of my situation
where it is possible. When there was discussion on the L about PPO
experiences, why do PPOs do crazy things they sometimes do, and what is
driving force behind some decisions, I resisted the urge to spill the beans knowing how much time and effort it'd take me to write an unbiased yet informative letter. I am taking a stab at it now.
Of course, it's just my side of the story - the side of novice PPO who had had no connections in the berner world and had nobody to ask privately what they think about breeder Such and Such.
I sincerely hope that mine is the worst that would ever happen to all the newbie PPOs.
I also realize that some of my ideas would seem naive to seasoned berner folk. :-) But then it would help them better understand just how little we understand of the matter and redouble educational efforts instead of "smirking at the ignoramus". So please I beg patience with me
I am using Sandy's letter as a trellis to weave my story on.
>Possibly this is where the PPO's must take it on their own to educate
>Themselves before jumping in a sinkhole.
When you know nobody, any deal with any breeder looks like a sinkhole.
So after several unfulfilled offers to refer to "a breeder closer to you", you jump into the first one you come across.
I think I did educate myself: I have read up on the health problems, the
incidence of some diseases in berners. I have looked at the results of the studies discussed on the L and various web sites. I read up on potty and leash training. I have memorized symptoms of hot-spots (since they are so fast to spread) and puppy training principles, read up on crate training to convince me that it wasn't as cruel as it seemed. I have projected the routine for the pup once the pups were born.
I've mentioned all these things just to give an idea how much we have to
learn when we first enter the parenthood with the puppy. After a while, all of this comes easily - just like diaper changing became an automatic routine when the twins were babies.
As to educating oneself about money-greedy breeders - there is no way I could figure out based solely on the facts available on the web without personal reference. Yes, I understand the complexity of the moral issues involved in creating a blacklist, but many of you old-timers have your own blacklists anyway by now...
So one goes about gathering references as to who didn't react to some serious puppy problem, didn't treat the PPO with basic decency once the dog and money changed hands.
Of course, just because some breeder didn't help a novice owner with
poop-eating pup once doesn't mean they won't be there for anybody. Or, it may mean just that - the breeder is so busy breeding and whelping and taking care of their own lives that they don't have time to fulfil promised support - and although I wasn't going to abuse it, I wanted to know this resource is available.
Simple (naive, perhaps) idea suggest itself: if the breeder is too busy to keep full track of their dogs and to return phone calls regarding the pup they have already bred, maybe they should slow down and breed only as many pups as they can provide support to owners?
>
>I personally NEVER take a deposit until I have a puppy available for you.
To me, having pup on the ground and having assured yourself that this pup (based on PAT tests and such) is suitable for that home are very different things. The PAT testing is done almost at the end of the pups' stay at the breeders - and usefulness of deposit given then (a week before purchase) is doubtful.
The breeder whom I complained about, took the deposit before pups were born, but she took only 5 reservations with 2 bitches pregnant. So in a sense, even though the pups weren't born, my chances of getting one were good. The caveat here is the temperament tests. It may happen that out of 10 pups there will not be one that would do well in my family. I did not hold my hopes high until the pups were tested - I kept telling my family that we are waiting for the temperament testing.
>
>However, as a breeder, I will say this - I have returned a deposit on two
>occasions, having the pup available and realizing that the ownership would
>not work in my mind.
>
I will respect the breeder's opinion as to best way to maintain my dog - I trust the breeder to keep up with all the studies on the matters
where she wields her authority. No, let me restate this: I think if the
breeder tells me what to do because I am deemed not knowledgeable enough, she/he must be more knowledgeable indeed. I am a scientist, and therefore somebody taking precedence over me is expected to have substantiated a right to do so.
I also respected this breeder's decision to cancel my reservation when she felt uncomfortable with my asking publicly about her - although I could have tried wheedling and humbly asking for forgiveness (I did feel bad about paining her even though I thought the reaction exaggerated). Moreover, I did not press for the money since she said she needs to rehome the pup - although the puppy reservation from did not stipulate any time for this.
>
>Opps, just thought of a third return....
<snip>
>They were very angry at me, but I felt 1) if they did not have the
>for the deposit, where would be the funds for the pup at pick up >which wasfunds
>getting closer and closer
>and 2) would they put off taking the pup to a vet days/weeks after noticing
>it was ill since it was not of that much importance to them...
I do not believe it would have been so bad: people can spread the cost of the veterinary care through smart use of credit cards without running up a credit card debt (I am saying this having recently read an article in personal finance magazine). The tardiness with sending deposit may not translate into tardiness taking care of the live being. Most of the time, the puppy price is one large sum that may be hard to scrap together for many people even with good income, whereas maintenance costs are spread throughout the year and thus are much easier to support.
Then again, actions tell of a personality and it is apparent that your
character did not overlap well with theirs - so you would have had trouble staying in touch with them in the future...
>Sometimes the PPO's are so aware of what they are "supposed" to say when
>talking on the phone or e-mails, etc, that the breeder isn't able to have a
>"feel" about the person.
Oh, this street goes both ways - it's easy for the breeder to learn what the buyers are supposed to ask, and find sleek answers that gloss over an issue - works especially well with inexperienced buyers. You have a feeling that the question wasn't answered, and yet there was some talking done...
<snip>
>
>Maybe it is just as well - no - it is, Just as well you did not get a puppy
>from this breeder.
>
>HOWEVER this breeder should have had the deposit on the mail back to
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. She had a right to do what she did and I had a right to ask about her. She did not feel comfortable with me. So I do not blame her for not selling me a pup - I just want my money back so I can buy a puppy from another breeder.you the next day.
>
>The PPO's need to research and educate themselves and there should
The Breeder Checklist said that deposits are not necessarily a bad thing. But nobody said how much deposit is too much. Another big thing I have found people are very secretive about the price of their pups. I am yet to see reasons behind this one. For example, if it was a publicly known fact that Potomac Valley BMD club has breeders selling pups for 900-1200 (the one I remember off the top of my head from Michael O'Hara post - I do miss his posts), I would have thought a bit longer about this breeder's price...never be a request in that amount for a deposit.
Besides, if it was know that the national average price for a berner from good breeder is $1200, the ads in newspapers will lose appeal by virtue of demanding much higher prices than good breeders'. Of course, this does not circumvent the immediate gratification urge.
I wish it'd be put in the Breeder Checklist - "Deposit in excess of 25% of the purchase price, run unless you are dead sure in this person. Run even faster if, at the same time, the price is much higher than national average of $1xxx"
<snip>
>I am learning thru this list that I am rather naive at times,
>....that times have changed and life is no longer simple.
Aah, apparently, I have not seen it :-)
I apologize for being so long - I hope this will teach the likes of me to examine the business side of the puppy buying as well as they'd examine health issues in the pup's family.
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