Payment protocol is locked down for v1 already. But did you read it? It
doesn't use addresses anywhere. Payments are specified in terms of a list
of outputs which can contain any script. Of course it could be a
pay-to-address script, but pay-to-address uses more bytes in the chain and
there isn't any typeability benefit.

The multiplication trick for deterministic keys is a nice one and worth
doing, but it has to be a v2 feature by this point. It's more important to
get v1 widely implemented and deployed first.

On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 7:57 PM, Alan Reiner <> wrote:

>  Guys,
> I'd like to reiterate my previous request to support this alternate
> address serialization in the payment protocol.  We got caught up in the
> specifics of one use case, but didn't acknowledge that it's still a valid
> address representation that will provide value to those who wish to use it
> and can be safely ignored by others.
> Current address format:   binary_to_base58( idbyte + hash160(pubkey) +
> checksum)
> Alternate format:         binary_to_base58( idbyte + parentpubkey +
> multiplier + checksum)
> The receiving party will multiply the pubkey by the multiplier, and then
> hash it to get the 20-byte address to send to.  The idea is that you use
> your BIP 32 parent public key, and then you generate whatever child you
> want, and only send them the multiplier used (not the chaincode).  This
> preserves privacy, but if the recipient has your parent public key already,
> they can identify that address being linked to you, but cannot determine
> any other addresses in your wallet.
> This form has no drawbacks to the existing address format except for being
> longer and requiring an extra EC multiplication by the person sending to
> that address.  But the advantage is that it optionally allows the sender to
> provide more information than currently contained in the 25-byte hash160
> form.  The discussion about this got side-tracked with the use case I
> presented, but I believe there are plenty of other uses for this.
> The particular use case I had in mind was that certain services could be
> setup (pre-arranged), say between wallet software and a business/exchange.
> The exchange would like to be able to reliably send addresses to the user
> for deposit, without risk of MITM, or even if their own public server is
> compromised.  The author of wallet software pre-verifies the public key
> portion of the service, and either hardcodes it into the software, or
> hardcodes their own public key into the software and makes the service's
> signed public key available through query server (allowing the software
> author to offline-sign replacement keys, or add keys for new service
> providers, as needed).
> When the user's software receives a payment address, the software can
> verify it belongs to that service.  You can't use dedicated chain
> technique, because it would either have to be exchanged with the user on
> first transaction which half defeats the purpose, or they give them the
> full public key and chaincode which allows the user to see *all *addresses
> ever used by the service.  Neither one is a reasonable solution.
> This use case doesn't necessarily scale, but it doesn't have to.  It
> simply allows service providers to skip the SSL and go right to public key
> exchange/verification for a few of the important services they provide
> access to, and will provide better security than relying on SSL/PKI.  This
> would simply be one, coexisting option for providing payment details in the
> absence (or in addition to) SSL/PKI infrastructure.
> I'm sure there's other use cases, but it seems simple enough and
> non-disruptive enough that it could be supported easily for no other reason
> than to support that use case (which I intend to implement in Armory to
> help verify high-volume services).
> -Alan
> On 06/26/2013 11:29 AM, Alan Reiner wrote:
> Although I'd still prefer my original request, I get much of what I want
> from your guys' recommendation.  It complicates the wallet design, because
> it requires tracking and associating a matrix of addresses for each wallet,
> instead of a single linear list.  But if this is what it's going to take
> then I will go along.
> Right now BIP 32 defines, m/i'/j/k, where j=0 is the "external" chain used
> for distributing addresses, and j=1 is the "internal" chain for sending
> change.  The CONOPs (concept of operations) for the extended wallet would
> be like Jeremy described:
> - Chains with j>=2 would be independent address chains carved out for
> individuals relationships
> - Add wallet code to individually associate each j-value with a particular
> identity
> - Update the wallet code to pool all the addresses in all j-chains when
> calculating the balance of the wallet and/or creating transactions
> - When choosing to generically "Receive Bitcoins", will pick the next
> address from the j=0 chain
> - Will have to add extra function to "Receive Bitcoins" button to allow
> creation of new contacts/identities.
> - Change will always go to the next address in j=1, no matter which chains
> are used to provide inputs.
> - Add code to figure out lookaheads for each alternate chain.  Not just
> each chain, but looking ahead a couple chains, too.  Luckily, the lookahead
> doesn't have to be very big for chains j>=1
> - Add an interface to display and choose the different chains in your
> wallet, and export the pubkey&chaincode in some soon-to-be-standardized
> format.
> - Add code and interface to receive and track alternate j-chains from
> other clients/users, and maintain those.  Should we try associating
> incoming and outgoing chains?  What happens if they do it wrong?  Meh...
> Just as one final swipe at this idea, you can see that I gotta do quite a
> bit of work to support the multi-chain idea, and adds a little extra burden
> on the user to maintain the organization of the wallet.  This would all be
> totally unnecessary with a simple alternate encoding.  Granted, I think the
> multi-chain idea is good, and one that I will probably implement anyway,
> but it seems like overkill in terms of developer complexity, and interface
> complexity to achieve something much simpler.  Developers of much
> simpler/lightweight clients would probably find this prohibitive.
> On another note:  I thought we weren't encouraging automatic payments
> without requesting from the other party...?  It makes me uneasy, but it
> sounds like group thought has converged on that being acceptable.  I bring
> it up, because there are situations where it makes sense, but it sounds
> unsafe for general users.   Alice will give Bob his own chain for sending
> Alice money, then a year later Bob will send money automatically to Alice
> not realizing that the wallet was lost, retired or compromised.  It's not
> that Bob can't ask for a new address, it's that if the interface says "Send
> Money to Alice", that looks legit enough that Bob may not feel it necessary
> to check with Alice first.   That's more of an interface issue though.  We
> can add a warning to "check with the recipient that they still have access
> to wallet 3cQ398x", etc.   But I just know someone is going to lose money
> anyway...
> -Alan
> On 06/20/2013 03:32 AM, Mike Hearn wrote:
> Agree with Jeremy and once the payment protocol work is further along I'd
> like to see us define an extension that lets you send payment requests
> containing public keys+chain codes, so further payments can be made
> push-style with no recipient interaction (e.g. for repeated billing). How
> apps choose to arrange their chains internally seems like an area for
> experimentation. I definitely want to implement HD wallets in bitcoinj to
> allow this and if that means not using the same tree structure as in the
> BIP then so be it.
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 5:54 AM, Jeremy Spilman <> wrote:
>> > BIP 32 already specifies how to use the first three tree levels:
>>  M/i/j/k,
>> > i~wallet, j~Internal/External, k~address.  The first level is actually
>> > type-1 derived, and thus we cannot create an arbitrary number of them
>> > without pre-computing them from the offline wallet.  So it's not "free"
>> to
>> > create new wallets unless we redefine how the levels work.
>>  Initially I was thinking that you would share the public key and chain
>> code
>> from [m/i'/0] so that you can receive payments at [m/i'/0/k], for a unique
>> value of 'i' for each receive chain.
>> For the case of generating new receive chains from a *watch-only* wallet,
>> as
>> you say, the options are to either keep a cache of PubKey/ChainCode for
>> unused [m/i'] or simply increment 'j' past 1 for an existing [m/i'/j] --
>> the
>> concept of 'internal/'external' and change addresses at Depth=2 don't make
>> sense for handing out receive chains to lots of people anyway, and
>> certainly
>> BIP32 doesn't *require* 0 <= j <= 1.  So I think incrementing 'j' is the
>> way
>> to go here...
>> The "default" layout of BIP32 does NOT mean that implementations should
>> not
>> check for transactions with j > 1. That would be a useless constraint and
>> obviously self-limiting. It might be helpful to add to the 'Compatibility'
>> section some minimum expectations about how a wallet should be 'probed'
>> when
>> imported. If you don't feel completely free to monotonically increment 'j'
>> to your hearts content to achieve major usability benefits, then I say
>> BIP32
>> could use some clarifying.
>> BTW - the spec calls for addition not multiplication now, so we should
>> call
>> it the 'Addend' not the 'Multiplier' :-)
>> > Do these extra wallet chains behave as different wallets, or
>> sub-wallets?
>>  They could, but they certainly don't need to!  A single-wallet
>> implementation treats this merely as an address-generation algorithm, and
>> does not expose any hierarchy to the user interface.  The user just
>> “magically” gets the ability to send multiple payments to their contacts
>> without immediately sacrificing their privacy
>> ( Everything
>> goes into the same ledger, balance, coin pool, etc. Most of the code base
>> is
>> unaware BIP32 is even in use.
>> While it is *possible* to support separate ledgers, balances, etc. it is
>> certainly not required, and you get all the benefits either way.
>> I think, since your proposal generates and receives payments into
>> BIP32-style addresses, we both need similar underlying wallet code. The
>> only
>> difference is that you are passing the Kpar for [m/i'/0/k] and the
>> *result*
>> of CKD'((Kpar, cpar), k), and instead I proposed passing Kpar and cpar,
>> and
>> leaving 'k' out of it, letting the receive choose 'k'.
>> > For instance, maybe there's a benefit to using the same parent pubkey
>>  > across multiple services, as a form of identity.   If I don't want
>> that, I
>> > use your method.  If I do want that, I use my method.
>>  I think it's a interesting idea using static public keys as a means for
>> persistent identity and hence security from MitM. If you want a shared
>> public key across multiple services we could just combine both ideas and
>> get
>> all the benefits, by making the data structure { ParentPubKey, Addend,
>> ChainCode }:
>>    ParentPubKey: Public key of m/i' -- 33 bytes
>>    Addend: I[L]*G from CDK'(m/i', j) -- 33 bytes
>>    ChainCode: I[R] from CDK'(m/i', j) -- 32 bytes
>> All that remains secret is the ChainCode from [m/i'] -- and of course the
>> private keys.  The ParentPubKey is a common value across multiple
>> services,
>> corresponding to user's identity rooted in [m/i'].  Each service gets
>> their
>> own 'j'.  ParentPubKey + Addend gives you the PubKey of [m/i'/j].  With
>> the
>> ChainCode, the receiver then can generate [m/i'/j/k] for monotonically
>> increasing 'k'. Again, from the user perspective all transactions under
>> [m/i'] can be presented in a single ledger, or not.
>> Anyway, fundamentally my feedback is if you are designing for persistent
>> long-term relationships, you could build in a mechanism for generating
>> address chains so you don't need any further communication after the
>> initial
>> exchange, and it need not complicate the wallet.
>> Thanks,
>> --Jeremy
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