This is not bitcoin-philosophy, it's bitcoin-development. Existential philosophy belongs on IRC or the forums.
On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Mark Friedenbach <m...@monetize.io> wrote: > Only if you view bitcoin as no more than a payment network. > > On Mar 1, 2014 10:24 AM, "Jeff Garzik" <jgar...@bitpay.com> wrote: >> >> This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list. >> >> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes <ho...@hozed.org> wrote: >> >> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you know... >> >> > >> >> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a sybil >> >> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - the data >> >> > they're trying to publish has to be public. >> >> >> >> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy... >> >> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at the price >> >> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" those parallel >> >> networks. >> >> I've seen many street markets without "public information" and they >> >> work just well. >> > >> > The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals, >> > and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet these are >> > some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding >> > the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make. >> > >> > I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price at >> > elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There >> > is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing the >> > 'cleared price' information. Have a look at >> > >> > http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=aboutlist&urlcode=12&view=1 >> > >> > >> >> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we discussed on >> >> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is price discovery, >> >> >> but >> >> >> trade itself. >> >> >> >> >> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public, and some >> >> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain old orders for >> >> >> historic >> >> >> bid and asks, etc. >> >> > >> >> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is without >> >> > proof-of-publication you just don't. >> >> >> >> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred. >> >> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could just >> >> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher fee, >> >> for that matter. >> > >> > You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own >> > mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably. >> > >> >> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about "accurate >> >> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell. >> >> >> >> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid after a >> >> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfortunately as >> >> > it >> >> > can make transactions permenantly invalid. >> > >> > People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about 'accurate >> > historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85, >> > fertilizer, >> > and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the >> > exchange. >> > >> > I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic market data' >> > as >> > long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough >> > price, >> > and I know who I'm dealing with. >> > >> > I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, and >> > political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market >> > data >> > history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without >> > actually >> > doing some usefull market function. >> > >> > As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good eye >> > for >> > knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put our >> > orders >> > in and relieve some speculators of their money. >> > >> > Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on the >> > accurate historic data problem later. >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' >> > ho...@hozed.org >> > 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul >> > grid.coop >> > >> > Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, >> > nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool. >> > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer >> > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports. >> > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool. >> > >> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Bitcoin-development mailing list >> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> >> >> -- >> Jeff Garzik >> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist >> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool. >> Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer >> Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports. >> Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool. >> >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool. Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports. Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
