On 4/23/2014 12:04 PM, Christophe Biocca wrote: > It's not necessary that this "coinbase retribution" be either > profitable or risk-free for this scheme to work. I think we should > separate out the different layers of the proposal: > > 1. Attacking the coinbase instead of orphaning allows for 100 blocks' > time for a consensus to be reached, rather than 10 minutes. This > allows for human verification/intervention if needed (orphaning > decisions would almost always need to be automated, due to the short > timeframe). This is a useful insight, and I don't think it's been > brought up before. > > 2. The original specification of how it's done (redistribution, no > cost to voting) does seem exploitable. This can be fixed by reducing > the incentive (burning instead of redistributing) and/or adding a risk > to the orphaning attempts (a vote that fails destroys X bitcoins' > worth from each voting block's own coinbase). The incentives can be > tailored to mirror those of orphaning a block, to reduce the risk of > abuse. Then the only difference from orphaning are 1) More limited > rewriting of history (only the coinbase, vs all transactions in the > block), and 2) More time to coordinate a response. > > 3. This proposal may be used for things other than punishing > double-spend pools. In fact it might be used to punish miners for > doing anything a significant percentage of hashpower dislikes (large > OP_RETURNs, large blocks, gambling transactions, transactions banned > by a government). But we can make the threshold higher than 51%, so > that this doesn't turn into a significant risk (if 75% of hashpower is > willing to enforce a rule, we're already likely to see it enforced > through orphaning). > > On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Alex Mizrahi <alex.mizr...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> And it still would. Non-collusive miners cast votes based on the outcome >>> of their own attempts to double spend. >> >> Individually rational strategy is to vote for coinbase reallocation on every >> block. >> >> Yes, in that case nobody will get reward. It is similar to prisoner's >> dilemma: equilibrium has worst pay-off. >> In practice that would mean that simple game-theoretic models are no longer >> applicable, as they lead to absurd results. >> >>> I'm using it in the same sense Satoshi used it. Honest miners work to >>> prevent double spends. That's the entire justification for their existence. >>> Miners that are deliberately trying to double spend are worse than useless. >> >> Miners work to get rewards. >> It absolutely doesn't matter whether they are deliberately trying to >> double-spend or not: they won't be able to double-spend without a collusion. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform >> Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software >> Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready >> Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development This all sounds verry restrictive. Is it possible to do a "sweep" in order to "clean up" double spending? Why punish miners for the sake of punishing them?
-- Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
