So you'd essentially be computing:

e = H(R || hybrid_pk || m)
P = e^{-1} * (s*G - R)

i.e. the same as BIP340 Schnorr, but hashing a commitment to the pubkey instead 
of the actual pubkey.

By binding the signature to a specific `hybrid_pk` you prevent any related-key 
attacks, including the fact that a valid signature from `P` cannot be applied 
to other hybrid keys - even if they commit to the same `P`.

Also note that this structure prevents a CRQC from factoring P until they see 
the first signature.

Seems reasonable. This would definitely break batch verification but we're 
going to have to give that up anyway in a PQ-world.

Does this break xonly arithmetic? Well if P is never put on-chain explicitly, 
we don't really need to care about shaving a byte off the public key, so the 
question is really whether the nonce R will let us recompute the correct public 
key if we elide its parity byte. And this is easy to engineer: Just negate R 
(and its discrete log) before signing if R has odd parity. Then you can encode 
x(R) in the signature and challenge hash, and the recovered pubkey is always 
correct.

This is a very clever idea. Seems like we'd shave about 48 bytes off the 
witness compared to a naive two-opcode script.

-16 bytes by removing the SHRINCS randomizer
-32 bytes by removing the Schnorr pubkey

Or about 48 bytes larger than bare SHRINCS:

+32 bytes for the Schnorr `s` component
+32 bytes for the Schnorr `R` component
-16 bytes by removing the SHRINCS randomizer

I'm still not fully convinced a hybrid scheme is ideal, since I expect the 
majority of users will not use hybrid scripts anyway - they'll use hybrid P2MR 
trees with one leaf per sig algo - but this is at least worthy of consideration 
when weighing options.

regards,
conduition

On Thursday, May 28th, 2026 at 1:49 AM, Nagaev Boris <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, May 27, 2026 at 1:55 PM conduition <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > That's a very neat idea Boris!
> >
> > However I'm pretty sure using a recoverable pubkey scheme will lead to loss 
> > of some security for the EC scheme. For instance, Schnorr with pubkey 
> > recovery precludes key-prefixing, which is necessary to avoid related-key 
> > attacks on BIP32. From BIP340:
> >
> > > Key prefixing Using the verification rule above directly makes Schnorr 
> > > signatures vulnerable to "related-key attacks" in which a third party can 
> > > convert a signature (R, s) for public key P into a signature (R, s + 
> > > a⋅hash(R || m)) for public key P + a⋅G and the same message m, for any 
> > > given additive tweak a to the signing key. This would render signatures 
> > > insecure when keys are generated using BIP32's unhardened derivation and 
> > > other methods that rely on additive tweaks to existing keys such as 
> > > Taproot.
> 

> There is an approach that seems to preserve public-key recovery and
> Schnorr linearity while avoiding the related-key issue.
> 

> Start from BIP340-style Schnorr, but prefix the challenge with the
> final hybrid public key rather than with the raw EC public key P:
> 

>     s*G = R + H(R || P || m)*P
> 

> becomes:
> 

>     s*G = R + H(R || hybrid_pk || m)*P
> 

> Here hybrid_pk commits to both the PQ root and P. The verifier already
> knows hybrid_pk from the pkscript (which is the source of truth), so
> there is no circular dependency: compute the challenge, recover P from
> the Schnorr equation, reconstruct the PQ root from the PQ signature,
> and check that both recompute hybrid_pk.
> 

> The related-key attack no longer works because tweaking P changes
> hybrid_pk, which changes the challenge. In particular, a signature for
> one BIP32-derived key cannot be converted into a valid signature for a
> neighboring key in the same derivation family.
> 

> For the PQ side, the message hash should also be bound to the final
> hybrid key rather than only to the standalone PQ key. This prevents
> extraction of a PQ signature from a hybrid signature and reusing it
> independently, so EC and PQ signatures are strongly glued together.
> 

> This is a deviation from what is currently deployed, and it would need
> a formal security argument. But the Schnorr signing equation remains
> linear, so the EC side should remain compatible with
> MuSig2/FROST-style aggregation.
> 

> 

> > Maybe ECDSA would be a viable option though, due to its non-linearity? But 
> > then we give up the nice linear properties of Schnorr of course.
> >
> > Clever idea to reuse the EC nonce as the SHRINCS randomizer. For security, 
> > the SHRINCS randomizer needs to be sampled from a PRF that ingests `SK.prf` 
> > and the message to sign. A straightforward approach would be to simply 
> > reuse the same PRF to generate a scalar nonce `r`, then use `xonly(r*G)` as 
> > the randomizer. Even if a CRQC can factor and find `r`, the randomizer 
> > `r*G` is still randomly distributed among the secp256k1 curve, so no 
> > security is lost there on the SHRINCS side I think.
> >
> > I will note the SHRINCS randomizer is actually being shrunk from 32 bytes 
> > to 16 bytes, to better align with SLH-DSA and XMSS standards, so reusing 
> > the EC nonce only saves 16 bytes, not 32 bytes, but still pretty cool.
> >
> > regards,
> > conduition
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, May 27th, 2026 at 2:17 AM, Nagaev Boris <[email protected]> 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Note that if the hybrid scheme is implemented as a single
> > > construction, we can optimize its total footprint. Let's assume we do
> > > the SHRINCS + EC hybrid scheme. We can apply the following
> > > optimizations to get the same footprint as SHRINCS itself, plus 32
> > > bytes.
> > >
> >
> > > 1. Use an EC signature with a recoverable public key. It could be
> > > ECDSA or a Schnorr with a public key recovery option (not exactly
> > > BIP-340).
> > >
> >
> > > Then we can put the EC pubkey into the hybrid key commitment - no
> > > additional space! The verifier recovers the EC public key from the
> > > signature and message, then checks that it matches the hybrid key
> > > commitment. Then they just use the recovered EC pubkey as well as PQ
> > > pubkey to recompute the hybrid public-key commitment. No need to store
> > > EC pubkey separately.
> > >
> >
> > > 2. We can also save 32 bytes of the total 64 bytes in the signature if
> > > we reuse the encoding of the EC signature's public nonce R to serve as
> > > the randomization field R of SHRINCS.
> > >
> >
> > > So the total signature is just 32 bytes larger than a SHRINCS
> > > signature and the pubkey is of the same size - EC pubkey does not add
> > > to total pubkey size.
> > >
> >
> > > However if the same policy is expressed as two consecutive Bitcoin
> > > Script opcodes, for example:
> > >
> >
> > >     <bip340_pubkey> OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY <shrincs_pubkey> OP_CHECKSHRINCSSIG
> > >
> >
> > > then the EC public key must appear in the revealed script/witness for
> > > a Taproot script-path spend, and the two independent signatures cannot
> > > share the public nonce/randomization field. That loses both
> > > optimizations.
> > >
> >
> > > On Tue, May 26, 2026 at 4:41 PM 'conduition' via Bitcoin Development
> > > Mailing List <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > We can also do that with script.
> > > >
> > > > <bip340_pubkey> OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY <dilithium_pubkey> 
> > > > OP_CHECKDILITHIUMSIG
> > > >
> > > > Note this is an opt-in construction. The main argument in favor of a 
> > > > unified hybrid scheme is it prevents people from using a PQC CHECKSIG 
> > > > operation independently - which is presumed risky because the new 
> > > > scheme or implementation could have bugs.
> > > >
> > > > However that same restriction used for safety will eventually become 
> > > > dead weight after enough time has passed, so we need a way to relax it 
> > > > later.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > conduition
> > > >
> > > > On Tuesday, May 26th, 2026 at 3:29 PM, Jesse Posner 
> > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not suggesting this is the right approach, but I believe the 
> > > > rationale for a hybrid scheme would be to enable lattice signatures 
> > > > with their superior functionality over hash-based schemes, while 
> > > > hedging against a break in lattice security using BIP340.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, May 23, 2026 at 8:44 AM 'conduition' via Bitcoin Development 
> > > > Mailing List <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Hi Isabel,
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm curious to get your thoughts on the following: it sounds like Dan 
> > > >> is advocating for a hybrid scheme and I'm wondering if this would 
> > > >> render the strategy of implementing different signatures at different 
> > > >> times less practical? In other words, does it still make sense to 
> > > >> implement something like SHRINCS before a lattice-based signature — if 
> > > >> we're ultimately hoping to implement a single hybrid scheme as Dan 
> > > >> proposes here?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Argh, I'm a bit torn about the idea of a unified hybrid scheme. Like 
> > > >> on one-hand, yes, technically if we wanted to maximize security and 
> > > >> reduce misuse, we could do it. For example, SHRINCS+BIP340 in a single 
> > > >> unified scheme. Or HAWK+BIP340. This would be strictly more secure 
> > > >> than any of these individual schemes in isolation.
> > > >>
> > > >> But also, a unified hybrid scheme would immediately be handicapped and 
> > > >> uncompetitive after Q-day. It would inflate witness sizes by around 
> > > >> 100 bytes per input, and complicate signer code for no good reason 
> > > >> (except arguably to mitigate statefulness risks). A hybrid scheme 
> > > >> would create a technical debt we'd have to pay off later by migrating 
> > > >> everyone to a pure PQC scheme, maybe even requiring another soft-fork. 
> > > >> That kind of tech-debt is easier to pay off in a web2 world, but not 
> > > >> so easy on a blockchain.
> > > >>
> > > >> Perhaps there is a way to engineer it such that we can soft-fork the 
> > > >> ECC component of a hybrid-scheme out later without the need to migrate 
> > > >> everyone. Or we can bind individual schemes together into a hybrid 
> > > >> scheme using feature flags (e.g. each pubkey starts with a flag byte, 
> > > >> where bit 0 turns on BIP340, and bit 1 turns on SHRINCS, etc), and let 
> > > >> users migrate on their own without a follow-up soft-fork.
> > > >>
> > > >> However, I'm not convinced that any of this engineering complexity is 
> > > >> necessary when you can achieve comparable security by hiding keys for 
> > > >> classical and PQ schemes in two different P2MR script leaves, which 
> > > >> was an OG defining use-case of P2MR.
> > > >>
> > > >> Or you can get almost exactly the same security, if you use both 
> > > >> schemes in the same script leaf: Anyone who wants the security of a 
> > > >> hybrid BIP340+SHRINCS scheme is free to implement it, and we could 
> > > >> even write wallet standards for it. But to require everyone to use a 
> > > >> hybrid scheme seems overkill to me, especially if we're talking about 
> > > >> hash-based sigs which are arguably more classically secure than ECC 
> > > >> (modulo the risks of stateful schemes).
> > > >>
> > > >> regards,
> > > >> conduition
> > > >> On Saturday, May 23rd, 2026 at 6:49 AM, Isabel Foxen Duke 
> > > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Hi Conduition,
> > > >>
> > > >> Nevermind on the hybrid scheme question -- Jonas explained in this 
> > > >> thread that hybrid scheme is likely something that would happen on the 
> > > >> wallet level (not consensus/opcode level), so this is now clarified on 
> > > >> my end - thanks again for all your help!
> > > >>
> > > >> x Isabel
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Friday, May 22, 2026 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-7 Isabel Foxen Duke wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hi Conduition,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> So glad you enjoyed the interview! I'm thrilled Dan is speaking on 
> > > >>> quantum-issues more publicly these days :)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Noted about threshold signatures and other features potentially being 
> > > >>> only theoretical and not truly practical with Lattice based 
> > > >>> signatures. I will bring this up with Dan and see if he has any 
> > > >>> comment here - or if he has updates that may affect thinking on this.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'm curious to get your thoughts on the following: it sounds like Dan 
> > > >>> is advocating for a hybrid scheme and I'm wondering if this would 
> > > >>> render the strategy of implementing different signatures at different 
> > > >>> times less practical? In other words, does it still make sense to 
> > > >>> implement something like SHRINCS before a lattice-based signature — 
> > > >>> if we're ultimately hoping to implement a single hybrid scheme as Dan 
> > > >>> proposes here?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> thanks for all your hard work on this
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Warmly,
> > > >>> Isabel Foxen Duke
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Thursday, May 21, 2026 at 12:29:21 PM UTC-7 conduition wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Hey Isabel, I watched the interview, very cool stuff. I loved seeing 
> > > >>>> Dan dodge your question about the mysterious "restrictions" google 
> > > >>>> was under (hello NSA).
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Dan is right that lattice-based crypto offers the promise of 
> > > >>>> algebraic structure, whereas hash-based crypto offers none. Having 
> > > >>>> open research avenues towards goals like threshold signatures is a 
> > > >>>> great thing. Yet the promise of the algebraic structure in lattices 
> > > >>>> hasn't materialized into anything usable. At least, there are no 
> > > >>>> schemes - yet - which tick the boxes we need. At best we have hope 
> > > >>>> for future developments. Lattice threshold and key-rerandomization 
> > > >>>> schemes will likely improve from where they are now, but until 
> > > >>>> proven otherwise we should make choices about consensus based on 
> > > >>>> what we have, not what we hope we will have someday.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Also, in the interview Dan acted as though deploying hash-based 
> > > >>>> signatures would preclude the deployment of lattice crypto later. It 
> > > >>>> doesn't. If we deploy a more cutting-edge cryptosystem like HAWK or 
> > > >>>> SQIsign, it will be once we have a suitably flexible and compact 
> > > >>>> schemes ready to build atop it, and when that happens we will still 
> > > >>>> be glad to have hash-based crypto as a backstop in case the 
> > > >>>> cutting-edge assumptions (or implementations) are busted.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> regards,
> > > >>>> conduition
> > > >>>> On Wednesday, May 20th, 2026 at 3:47 PM, Isabel Foxen Duke 
> > > >>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> FWIW —
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> "I would actually like to push for lattice-based signatures..." says 
> > > >>>> Dan Boneh in new interview out this morning (1:11:00)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> He primarily cites algebraic structure as allowing greater 
> > > >>>> functionality - and is concerned that features like threshold 
> > > >>>> signature schemes will be much harder to implement with hash-based 
> > > >>>> signatures.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -Isabel Foxen Duke
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Tuesday, May 19, 2026 at 8:27:40 PM UTC-7 conduition wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Hey Nikita, thanks for broaching the idea.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I can't speak for Blockstream, but as to the spirit of your 
> > > >>>>> question - Why people are looking at hash-based sigs more than 
> > > >>>>> lattices - I can think of four major reasons:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 1. Conservatism. Hash based signatures are incredibly conservative. 
> > > >>>>> They rely on strictly weaker assumptions than what we already 
> > > >>>>> depend on for other things. No other family of signatures can claim 
> > > >>>>> this property, and for something as inflexible-yet-sensitive as 
> > > >>>>> Bitcoin, conservativism is appealing.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 2. Simplicity. Hash-based signatures are easier to grasp, simpler 
> > > >>>>> to prove secure, and easier to implement compared to almost 
> > > >>>>> anything else (even simpler than ECC). We Bitcoiners tend to clutch 
> > > >>>>> our pearls in fear of trusting flawed assumptions... but in reality 
> > > >>>>> most vulnerabilities are not cryptographic in nature: Most are 
> > > >>>>> implementation failures. Hash-based sigs are harder (but not 
> > > >>>>> impossible) to screw up. An experienced engineer can implement 
> > > >>>>> FIPS-205 (SPHINCS) in a weekend, or less with AI tools. This 
> > > >>>>> simplicity also makes hash-based sigs easier to pitch during 
> > > >>>>> consensus debates: It's harder to fear something once you 
> > > >>>>> understand it.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 3. Efficiency. Hash-based sigs are surprisingly fast to verify [0]. 
> > > >>>>> Their cost-per-byte is way lower than Schnorr. If you can bite the 
> > > >>>>> statefulness bullet, hash-based sigs can even be compact (and still 
> > > >>>>> fast). There remains some hope we might be able to use them as a 
> > > >>>>> daily driver if CRQCs appear faster than anticipated. This 
> > > >>>>> efficiency comes at a price of course, but that price is paid by 
> > > >>>>> the signer implementation while verifiers remain slim, quick, and 
> > > >>>>> secure.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 4. Future-proofing. Because of their conservatism, hash-based sigs 
> > > >>>>> stand a better chance of remaining secure over a long time-frame, 
> > > >>>>> so it seems more likely we could rely on them to fulfill a 
> > > >>>>> long-term fallback role. We will likely someday need to deploy a 
> > > >>>>> new cryptosystem to replace ECC as a daily driver if ECDLP is 
> > > >>>>> broken, whether classically or by a CRQC. When/if this happens, 
> > > >>>>> we'll be REALLY glad we added hash-based sigs first, because then 
> > > >>>>> we'll have something to use if the novel scheme's assumptions (or 
> > > >>>>> more likely, implementation) are broken.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> This is not to say we shouldn't be researching lattices. Or 
> > > >>>>> isogenies, or anything else for that matter. We need to know what's 
> > > >>>>> possible, and to educate the community about the options we have. 
> > > >>>>> I'm glad to see Blockstream funding this important work. I view 
> > > >>>>> hash-based sigs as the first episode of a decades-long saga, but 
> > > >>>>> unfortunately we lack enough knowledge to know what should come 
> > > >>>>> next. Maybe that is lattices? maybe something else. With time, 
> > > >>>>> effort, and (hopefully) funding, we shall find out.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> If I had to pen a wishlist of stuff I'd like to see from lattice 
> > > >>>>> crypto research, this would be it:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> - [ ] compact keys and sigs. Ideally, less than a kilobyte witness 
> > > >>>>> size total, but I'd be happy with at least a twofold improvement 
> > > >>>>> over what stateless hash-based sigs can offer.
> > > >>>>> - [ ] rerandomization e.g. BIP32 unhardened derivation. This has 
> > > >>>>> been done [1], but AFAIK it is impossible without massively 
> > > >>>>> expanding the sizes of keys and/or signatures.
> > > >>>>> - [ ] a multisignature scheme, or a threshold protocol with a DKG. 
> > > >>>>> Again, never seen this without massive keys and sigs, but I see no 
> > > >>>>> reason why it should be impossible.
> > > >>>>> - [ ] integer-only arithmetic. Falcon keys and sigs are smaller 
> > > >>>>> than ML-DSA, but it comes at the expense of complex floating point 
> > > >>>>> arithmetic headaches. It'd be nice if we could do away with that.
> > > >>>>> - [ ] signature aggregation. This is a more general wish of any PQ 
> > > >>>>> scheme, and if someone can do it, even with somewhat large sigs or 
> > > >>>>> poor performance, it might make the whole scheme way more 
> > > >>>>> palatable, in tandem with a CISA proposal.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Also see this relevant delvingbitcoin thread [1] for more sources.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> regards,
> > > >>>>> conduition
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> [0]: https://conduition.io/code/fast-slh-dsa-verification/
> > > >>>>> [1]: 
> > > >>>>> https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/post-quantum-hd-wallets-silent-payments-key-aggregation-and-threshold-signatures/1854/
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Tuesday, May 19th, 2026 at 9:06 PM, Nikita Karetnikov 
> > > >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > Dear list,
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > I hate to contribute to the recent flood of PQC posts, but I 
> > > >>>>> > think it’s an important issue that’s worth discussing.
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > In particular, what I usually see is various competing proposals 
> > > >>>>> > without a clear winner.
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > So I’d like to bring everyone’s attention to this new post from 
> > > >>>>> > Blockstream:
> > > >>>>> > https://blog.blockstream.com/schnorr-but-with-vectors-lattice-based-signatures-explained/
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > This post is interesting because unlike a lot of PQC discussions, 
> > > >>>>> > it actually includes a comparison table of various approaches, 
> > > >>>>> > where lattices seem to come out ahead.
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > This raises a few questions.
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > Since lattices are not a new topic in cryptography, why has 
> > > >>>>> > Blockstream focused their efforts on hash-based approaches so far?
> > > >>>>> > Are hashes seen as a more conservative choice?
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > Given the problems with hashes outlined in the post, are lattices 
> > > >>>>> > actually the current most likely candidate for a PQC 
> > > >>>>> > implementation?
> > > >>>>> > If so, should the community effort be focused on lattices instead 
> > > >>>>> > of other proposals?
> > > >>>>> > Or is the comparison table not telling the whole story?
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > I’d like to hear your thoughts on the topic.
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > Thanks,
> > > >>>>> > Nikita
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > --
> > > >>>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the 
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> > > >>>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 
> > > >>>>> > send an email to [email protected].
> > > >>>>> > To view this discussion visit 
> > > >>>>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/ffa56d63-32c6-4fc3-a150-4fe62ac2e00b%40app.fastmail.com.
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>
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> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
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> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > --
> > > Best regards,
> > > Boris Nagaev
> > >
> 

> 

> 

> --
> Best regards,
> Boris Nagaev
> 

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